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Finding distance to lands

What difference does it make when you can just go do load development again:D


Tom

Right? In 1k Br a seat depth window may only be plus or minus .001" before accuracy degrades. I measured my throat and adjusted seating depth every day, and would have done it after every target if I had time. In other disciplines where seating depth is not as critical there may be quicker and easier ways.

The other reason I like this method is if I build a dasher for someone and they ask for a load I can say put the bullet .005-.006" in the lands and know they will actually be .005- .006" in the lands.
 
I also agree with Boyd. Any consistent method to get a repeatable reference point and determine which seating depth works best relative to that position. In a factory action with a plunger ejector, I find the Hornady/Sinclair tool is easiest. In ejectorless R700 based actions I own, it is easier and more repeatable for me to use the method as described in Alex's video.

I'm kind of leaning this way myself. I understand the reasoning behind Alex/Tom's method, but I've used the Stoney Point comparator for a *lot* of years and have worked out how to get consistent results - for me. Not terribly concerned about anyone else's - sometimes, for sake of comparison, but otherwise, I'm doing these measurements for *me*.

Ironically, the first time I followed along Alex's video, I got almost exactly the same value as I had using my Stoney Point tool - and I use a fair bit of force using that tool, more than most people I've talked to.

The whole process is a bit more complicated with a Savage action than it appears with a custom / 700 based action. Not undoable, just more annoying.

I may have to compare results with the Stoney Point again... if I'm still getting similar and consistent results, with an easier method... well that's a pretty simple choice.
 
I take one downer brass, cut the neck with a small cut-off wheel in a Dremel; lengthwise just the neck. Then size it. Start a bullet in the case and close action. As soon as the bullet engages rifling there just enough tension to push bullet to C.O.L with out forcing anything or jamming it to far into lands. Had a old gunny Sargent show me that trick.

Luke, I was in a gun parts store in Irving, TX when a proud owner of a very expensive rifle came in to have the 'head space' checked. The owner of the store informed the proud owner he did not have a head space gage for the rifle; the owner did not have a suggestion as to where he could go so he left. After he left I informed the owner of the parts store I could determine the length of any chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face on any rifle without a head space gage. And then the 'Gunny' owner ask: "HOW?"! So I took the time to demonstrate/explain and he responded with "Well I be D@MM$D".

When determining to, into or off the lands I want to transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die. I do not find anything entertaining about placing a case into the shell holder, raising the ram and then adjusting the seating stem and then removing and measuring and continue etc. etc. etc. until I have the desired length that gives me at, into or off the lands. And then there is tomorrow, starting over is not necessary.

F. Guffey
 
Luke, I was in a gun parts store in Irving, TX when a proud owner of a very expensive rifle came in to have the 'head space' checked. The owner of the store informed the proud owner he did not have a head space gage for the rifle; the owner did not have a suggestion as to where he could go so he left. After he left I informed the owner of the parts store I could determine the length of any chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face on any rifle without a head space gage. And then the 'Gunny' owner ask: "HOW?"! So I took the time to demonstrate/explain and he responded with "Well I be D@MM$D".

When determining to, into or off the lands I want to transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die. I do not find anything entertaining about placing a case into the shell holder, raising the ram and then adjusting the seating stem and then removing and measuring and continue etc. etc. etc. until I have the desired length that gives me at, into or off the lands. And then there is tomorrow, starting over is not necessary.

F. Guffey



Chuckle chuckle chuckle Freddy
 
....... was in a gun parts store in Irving, TX when a proud owner of a very expensive rifle came in to have the 'head space' checked. The owner of the store informed the proud owner he did not have a head space gage for the rifle; the owner did not have a suggestion as to where he could go so he left. After he left I informed the owner of the parts store I could determine the length of any chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face on any rifle without a head space gage. And then the 'Gunny' owner ask: "HOW?"! So I took the time to demonstrate/explain and he responded with "Well I be D@MM$D".

Darrin4.png
 
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I’d still love to read a text version covering the highlights of the Alex Wheeler ‘how to’ video.

Step 1 Remove firing pin and ejector spring from bolt. It can now open and close with zero effort or resistance

Step 2 Size a piece of brass until it also chambers and extracts with zero resistance. This may require sizing more than you normally do.

Step 3 Seat a bullet in the sized brass, a little bit long, and attempt to chamber. You'll need to make sure you've got it clipped underneath the extractor first so that you're not trying to force the case head under the extractor when chambering. If you feel resistance, stop and don't try to chamber further.

Step 4 Progressively seat the bullet shorter and check the chamber feel as you go. There will be a point where the round will start to chamber with essentially zero resistance, ie. the weight of the bolt handle alone is enough to push the bullet into the lands. However, when you lift the bolt handle there will be a little "click" which is the bullet pulling free of the lands as you lift the bolt up through primary extraction.

Step 5 Seat the bullet into the case further in increments of .001 until that little "click" on bolt lift goes away and there is zero bullet to lands contact on chambering or extraction. This (or 0.001 longer) is the exact point where your bullet touches the lands.
 
So... maybe I missed this earlier... question for @Alex Wheeler & @tom... when you are right at the lands, maybe a thou or so still 'into' the lands... are you getting even marks from all the lands on the bullet, or not? Others mentioned, and I've seen the same thing, where in some situations I only see marks from say two lands out of four or five.
 
Step 1 Remove firing pin and ejector spring from bolt. It can now open and close with zero effort or resistance

Step 2 Size a piece of brass until it also chambers and extracts with zero resistance. This may require sizing more than you normally do.

Step 3 Seat a bullet in the sized brass, a little bit long, and attempt to chamber. You'll need to make sure you've got it clipped underneath the extractor first so that you're not trying to force the case head under the extractor when chambering. If you feel resistance, stop and don't try to chamber further.

Step 4 Progressively seat the bullet shorter and check the chamber feel as you go. There will be a point where the round will start to chamber with essentially zero resistance, ie. the weight of the bolt handle alone is enough to push the bullet into the lands. However, when you lift the bolt handle there will be a little "click" which is the bullet pulling free of the lands as you lift the bolt up through primary extraction.

Step 5 Seat the bullet into the case further in increments of .001 until that little "click" on bolt lift goes away and there is zero bullet to lands contact on chambering or extraction. This (or 0.001 longer) is the exact point where your bullet touches the lands.

Many thanks. :)

I already ‘manipulate’ a case to find for each chamber for use as a reference dimension, at what case head to shoulder datum length results in practically zero headspace.

So, if I ‘manipulate’ another case ‘til it’s just enough shorter than that ‘zero clearance’ reference dimension to eliminate all possibility of influence from a case that’s too long, thereon it’s simply seat leaving the bullet out long enough to touch and then seat incrementally (- .001”) shorter ‘til at the first point (1st -.001” increment) where there’s no longer any “click” from tugging (very slight) on the bullet to free it from the lands, rite?
 
So... maybe I missed this earlier...

I take one downer brass,

You could have missed the part where Luke said he uses downer cases as in fire formed cases. When using store purchased cases that are threaded for the gage there is only one size case available and the case necks do not have all the bullet hold possible. When determining the distance from the lands to the bolt face I want all the bullet hold I can get and there is no way a reloader can have precision measurments without knowing the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. A fire formed cases takes care of that.

When using transfers the reloader does not have to start over again the next day. And then there are reloaders that shred the case neck to make it easier to push the bullet out of the case neck. Not me, I am happy if it is necessary to use 45 pounds of effort to push the bullet into the lands.

F. Guffey
 
Using the method in the video, when I feel NO hesitation on the extraction cam, I also have no marks. I do use steel wool at the same time, even though unnecessary. This way I watch and feel both. When doing so I see it come from 4 marks to 2 to nothing. I always questioned myself relying on marks only.

@tom I think part of the problem I'm having is that I'm using different kind of action (Savage), that doesn't have a Remington style extraction cam. Basically, in order to be able to 'feel' the bullet engage the lands at all, I have to remove the rear baffle (which provides the primary extraction cam) from the bolt. Once I do that... there is basically *no* extraction besides me pulling back on the bolt handle... and it is very easy to 'stick' a round in the lands. There's a range where I can feel the bolt handle go down with very little resistance, but its still leaving marks on the bullet (polished with #0000 steel wool).
 
I forgot people shoot savages ;)

Dang elitist :p

The good news is, I'll bet your .308 isn't advancing anything like I see in a dasher.

Probably not. The one Dasher I had was shooting great, I was tearing things up at a local 500yd league with it. But as the summer progressed, I was having to work harder and harder for those Xs... finally checked the seating depth and realized my throat had moved about 10 thou over about 1500 rds :eek: and I had gone from 10 thou jam (Berger 105 VLDs) to just kissing the lands - not good. Seated it back out a bit, added a tenth more powder, and I was off n running again.

That said... its looking like 200 Hybrids and 200.20Xs are probably a little harder on the throat than say, S155MKs or B155.5BTs.
 
and it is very easy to 'stick' a round in the lands. There's a range where I can feel the bolt handle go down with very little resistance, but its still leaving marks on the bullet (polished with #0000 steel wool).

Depends, I am the fan of all the bullet hold I can get, if there was such a thing as a 'target' amount of bullet hold I would choose 40 pounds. If there was such a thing as tension and a way to measure tension I would find the conversion chart from tensions to pounds or pounds to tensions, anyhow, I use bullet hold.

Because I make transfers I do not find all of the different methods and or techniques necessary; and then when it comes tp purchasing all of the tools some find necessary when measuring to, into or off the lands my tools are basically free.

F. Guffey
 
Alex, Matt,

Are you sure you wouldn't just rather redevelop the load each time you measure 1,2,3... thousands of erosion?;)

My point was that I think Matt's post went straight over the head of some.

Tom
And actually Tom you were also right. The number I gave in that scenario was too big. .020 in WSM is a big movement and would be like throating it out .020 which would probably change the load. Matt
 
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Depends, I am the fan of all the bullet hold I can get, if there was such a thing as a 'target' amount of bullet hold I would choose 40 pounds. If there was such a thing as tension and a way to measure tension I would find the conversion chart from tensions to pounds or pounds to tensions, anyhow, I use bullet hold.

Because I make transfers I do not find all of the different methods and or techniques necessary; and then when it comes tp purchasing all of the tools some find necessary when measuring to, into or off the lands my tools are basically free.

F. Guffey
I have a question for you. Are you shooting 5 shot groups of one to two inches at 600 yards? Or maybe 2 to 3 inch groups at 1000 yards? Why do you insist on confusing people and telling them things that are old? Matt
 

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