Hello, I've been shooting mostly tactical style uncompetitive for about 10 years now. I've had 3 rifles built during that time and currently have a 6.5x47 with a BAT VR155 action, Broughton barrel and in an AICS chassis. I love this gun and it shoots the 123 Scenars with N-150 less than half MOA fairly consistently. I'm now thinking about building my 1st benchrest/f-class type rifle and I need some advice. I mostly shoot prone or from a bench now with a bipod with rear bag. If I decide to do this, I don't want to cut any corners. I want the best gunsmith, action, barrel and stock. I don't have a lot of time to research this stuff like I would like, so I figured I'd ask here and over on Sniper's Hide. I know these questions are very subjective, but I figured it would at least narrow my choices. I'm thinking another BAT action (not sure on model or configuration...2 lug or 3, etc.) with a Krieger barrel and I'm not really sure on the stock. I'm leaning towards a 6BR. Lapua brass is a must for me and I don't want to fireform anything. I'd rather keep this build as light as possible for this type of rifle. Most my shooting is done on my farm where I have a 400 yard range, but I also have a few fairly local places to shoot out to 1000 yards from time to time. I've read with the 6BR, .25 MOA is doable fairly easy with reloads and I'd hope this gun would shoot consistently in the .2's at 100 and less than an inch at 400 yards with a little load development. Let me know if I'm too optimistic. I have my 2 local smiths that have built my previous rifles, but they focus more on tactical builds and I was thinking the benchrest guys would be the best for this. Thanks for your time.
Help me out with my 1st benchrest/f-class type build
- Thread starter ccooper
- Start date
Just looked at Alex Wheeler's site and Facebook and wow, I'm impressed. Cool stuff and info. Read thru the "F Class competitive in BR" discussion too and good info. Love the bedding surface of the Panda F Class action, but I don't know about aluminum? Those Borden BRM's also look good on Alex's site.
First of all, good on you for wanting to have a true BR/F Class Smith do your work. It will pay off.
BAT, Borden, Panda... they all work, and I think it is really user preference. I use Panda's, but I see Bordens, Stillers and BATs next to me on the line at every shoot. If you do go the Panda route, don't sweat it being made from aluminum. There are steel inserts where a harder metal is needed, and the aluminum is more than strong enough to get the job done.
There are lots of good stocks out there designed for F-Class and Benchrest. When you choose a smith, ask what he generally works with/prefers and why.
You may also want to consider the ancillary equipment you may need. Do you plan to keep shooting from a bipod or would you move to a front rest? You can spend nearly as much on a front rest as you will on a custom action (heck, you can spend more on the front rest).
Bullets... If you want a rifle that will shoot in the .2's, you will have a much higher success rate if you invest in custom made match bullets. If you want to go the factory bullet route do yourself a favor and get the equipment to sort the bullets. It is somewhat tedious but worth the effort in my opinion. That said, you will pay nearly as much for good factory bullets (Berger Target, Scenars) as you will for custom bullets. You may find that the few extra pennies per bullet is worth it.
Dies... If you are going to the trouble of having a rifle of this level built, you will want a hand seater die. Talk to your smith about having one made. You will find that with the hand seater die, you will eliminate virtually all runout from seating. Couple it with a good arbor press set up to measure neck tension and you will see the full potential of those custom bullets coming out of that custom rifle.
Good luck!
Josh
BAT, Borden, Panda... they all work, and I think it is really user preference. I use Panda's, but I see Bordens, Stillers and BATs next to me on the line at every shoot. If you do go the Panda route, don't sweat it being made from aluminum. There are steel inserts where a harder metal is needed, and the aluminum is more than strong enough to get the job done.
There are lots of good stocks out there designed for F-Class and Benchrest. When you choose a smith, ask what he generally works with/prefers and why.
You may also want to consider the ancillary equipment you may need. Do you plan to keep shooting from a bipod or would you move to a front rest? You can spend nearly as much on a front rest as you will on a custom action (heck, you can spend more on the front rest).
Bullets... If you want a rifle that will shoot in the .2's, you will have a much higher success rate if you invest in custom made match bullets. If you want to go the factory bullet route do yourself a favor and get the equipment to sort the bullets. It is somewhat tedious but worth the effort in my opinion. That said, you will pay nearly as much for good factory bullets (Berger Target, Scenars) as you will for custom bullets. You may find that the few extra pennies per bullet is worth it.
Dies... If you are going to the trouble of having a rifle of this level built, you will want a hand seater die. Talk to your smith about having one made. You will find that with the hand seater die, you will eliminate virtually all runout from seating. Couple it with a good arbor press set up to measure neck tension and you will see the full potential of those custom bullets coming out of that custom rifle.
Good luck!
Josh
Thanks Josh for your time. Couple of questions: 1) The steel inserts on the Panda worries me more than the aluminum. To me it just sounds "sloppy" (probably bad choice of words) to insert steel into aluminum and how? Glued in? Do the inserts ever come loose?
2) Who makes custom made match bullets? All I've ever used were Scenars, Bergers and Matchkings. I thought those were tops.
I know. I've thought the same and I do absolutely love the 6.5x47, but I've always wanted a 6BR too.
Sloppy is not a word to use in the same sentence as Kelblys. The Panda is a great action and has been around a long time. I would usually say no to a dual purpose gun. Five pound difference in the classes. But if you intend on mainly 600 yards, a 17lb 6BR gun would not give up much to a 22lb one.
Like sdean said, sloppy and Kelbly's (manufacturer of the Panda) just don't go together, lol. I believe that the inserts are threaded and epoxied in place. The Panda has been around a LONG time, and holds the records to prove its efficacy. I have never heard of the insert coming loose.
As for bullets, I can only be of some small assistance. I shoot short range BR with a 30BR and get my bullets from a custom maker for that. I would suggest perusing the 6BR forum here on accurateshooter, I think you will find a wealth of info about good pills: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/forums/6br-6br-improved-wildcats.5/
To be a little more specific, I know that Vapor Trail and Barts are pretty popular, but I cannot claim to have fired bullets from either:
http://vaportrailbullets.com/
http://www.bartsbullets.com/
Best regards,
Josh
As for bullets, I can only be of some small assistance. I shoot short range BR with a 30BR and get my bullets from a custom maker for that. I would suggest perusing the 6BR forum here on accurateshooter, I think you will find a wealth of info about good pills: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/forums/6br-6br-improved-wildcats.5/
To be a little more specific, I know that Vapor Trail and Barts are pretty popular, but I cannot claim to have fired bullets from either:
http://vaportrailbullets.com/
http://www.bartsbullets.com/
Best regards,
Josh
HTSmith
Silver $$ Contributor
6BR is easy to load and easy to shoot well--especially if you want it on the light side. It would be all you'd ever need or want on the farm. At 1000 yards, the faster 6mm's and the heavier 7 mm's would have some advantage in the wind. With the kind of money you are talking about, it would be no great stretch to have both 6BR and 284Win barrels fitted. Then you've have it all covered pretty well. With a basic wrench and vice, changing barrels is a breeze.
It would be wise indeed to talk extensively with Alex Wheeler about the rifle you want. He is an invaluable source of info and an excellent 'smith to boot. He has knowledge of both BR and F-Class, which is exactly what you need. Now as far as cartridges are concerned, there are several that can fit the bill. However, accuracy must be "off the scale" from 100 to 1000 yards. To reach 1000 with a GREAT B.C. bullets for F-Class is a must IF you want to be competitive. Wind is your friend, however, it must be overcome to some degree. Low(er) recoil is important for extended periods of fire, to combat recoil fatigue. At least low enough recoil to tolerate and control during that time. To reach each of these goals almost seems an impossibility. BUT it can be obtained. I think that the NEW cartridge on the horizon of greatness, is not a new cartridge at all. However, better bullets, newer powders and better barrels have awakened this cartridge. MY opinion is that the .260 A.I. fills all those bills without compromise! I have had 2 of them so far and my current one is THEE most accurate rifle I have ever shot>>>no matter the cartridge! It outshoots my Dasher (all my Dashers I have had), it is not far behind the BIG 7's in wind drift. It's recoil is very mild! In short, it is one cartridge that can meet the demands of Benchrest as well as F-Class and do so with little compromise! This is my estimation of what I would look for in what you are trying to accomplish.
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If I remember correctly the Panda's are put together by heating one part and freezing the other and then pressed together. When at room temperature this is equal to a .005 press fit. This action is essentially a one piece construction. Never heard of one coming apart or anything remotely close to that.
Paul
www.boltfluting.com
Paul
www.boltfluting.com
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Benchrest and F-Class have different rifle weight limits, and different cartridges dominate in each. Beyond that, your "impression" of aluminum actions with steel inserts could not be more incorrect. If you watch your build weight carefully you could do both with the same rifle, but for optimal results, you would want to make it a switch barrel with two different calibers. Be careful of the forend width rule for F-Open. It is a few thousandths less than 3".
Thanks everyone for their advice and time. I'm trying to take all this in and educate myself a little before making any mistakes and wasting any gunsmiths time on the phone. I know their time is important. I'm really liking the F-Class type shooting (benchrest sounds too intensive to me and free recoil type shooting definitely isn't me). I'm really liking the F-Class T/R package over at Precision Rifle & Tool. I love the look of their Low Boy stock. I want to be able to carry this rifle around my farm some to set up and shoot from different locations so I want it as light as possible. I love the look of their Low Boy stock. How is PR&T's smithing and work regarded? I'm gonna call them in a day or two and I'm definitely gonna give Alex Wheeler a ring to. Thanks again.
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