CMP Response to F-class Electronic Targets Issues.

[Lbart]

Mr. Tyler,
I can understand Dan Biggs’ polite rejection of your request to promote your range. I am sure it was for the same reasons I would have rejected an invitation. The time and funds I can devote to competitive shooting are limited and I must devote both to those major completions which fully comply with the rules that apply to F-Class either here or internationally.

Targets with the correct scoring lines on them are one of the major requirements. These lines are used in all major FC matches around the world. Rather than expect top shooters to come and learn a new method of shooting FC you should adapt your target system to the established discipline. I hope when the implementation of the “aiming area on the electronic target” are added they include all the scoring lines since I have many times had to use them.

I can understand your stating that the range serves those that shoot on it, but if you want to grow the range usage, the attitude of “Since the top ranking F-Class shooters have rejected an opportunity to compete on the CMP range, your input does not currently carry much weight.”, does not seem to be polite or inviting to me.

Best of Luck with the range.

 

[Ed Tyler]

Mr. Tyler,
I can understand Dan Biggs’ polite rejection of your request to promote your range. I am sure it was for the same reasons I would have rejected an invitation. The time and funds I can devote to competitive shooting are limited and I must devote both to those major completions which fully comply with the rules that apply to F-Class either here or internationally.

Targets with the correct scoring lines on them are one of the major requirements. These lines are used in all major FC matches around the world. Rather than expect top shooters to come and learn a new method of shooting FC you should adapt your target system to the established discipline. I hope when the implementation of the “aiming area on the electronic target” are added they include all the scoring lines since I have many times had to use them.

I can understand your stating that the range serves those that shoot on it, but if you want to grow the range usage, the attitude of “Since the top ranking F-Class shooters have rejected an opportunity to compete on the CMP range, your input does not currently carry much weight.”, does not seem to be polite or inviting to me.

Best of Luck with the range.

Larry, The CMP Range represents a huge investment. They truly want to provide quality service to the shooters that frequent the range. The comments from those shooters, frequent customers, will carry the greatest weight. That is not to say the CMP management is not paying attention to F-Class shooters that have never been to the range. It is saying their first goal is to provide quality service to the shooters that are shooting most often at the CMP range. F-Class represents a competitive discipline, a form of recreation, and a market for range operators.

I don't wish to insult anyone. I have chosen to take a long-term view of the F-Class at the CMP range. I will try to promote it inside of the existing facilities and hopefully over time I be afforded the opportunity to guide the growth of those activities at the CMP facility. Anyone that wishes to help shape the F-Class activities at CMP facility is welcome. It is a simple case of leading change rather than dictating it. As the F-Class activity grows at the range our opportunity to affect positive change will grow.

As for whether a comment about people that chose not to shoot at the range not having a significant voice in the activities, it's not impolite. It is a recognition that existing customers, active shooters, have an inside opportunity to affect change. Just a reality of life.

 

[JFM33]

Larry, The CMP Range represents a huge investment. They truly want to provide quality service to the shooters that frequent the range. The comments from those shooters, frequent customers, will carry the greatest weight. That is not to say the CMP management is not paying attention to F-Class shooters that have never been to the range. It is saying their first goal is to provide quality service to the shooters that are shooting most often at the CMP range. F-Class represents a competitive discipline, a form of recreation, and a market for range operators.

I don't wish to insult anyone. I have chosen to take a long-term view of the F-Class at the CMP range. I will try to promote it inside of the existing facilities and hopefully over time I be afforded the opportunity to guide the growth of those activities at the CMP facility. Anyone that wishes to help shape the F-Class activities at CMP facility is welcome. It is a simple case of leading change rather than dictating it. As the F-Class activity grows at the range our opportunity to affect positive change will grow.

As for whether a comment about people that chose not to shoot at the range not having a significant voice in the activities, it's not impolite. It is a recognition that existing customers, active shooters, have an inside opportunity to affect change. Just a reality of life.

Well Mr Ed I have shot at your F matches and suggested some form of overlay for the targets along with the two other shooters that made the trip from Ga.It 's really not that difficult if you and the CMP want my attendance put up an official F-Class target .
I will also say the CMP has done a beautiful job building the range!
Good luck
John

 

[rduckwor]

I have only shot one "F-Class" match the and it was worth the drive. The immediate feedback of an electronic target system is invaluable to a relatively new shooter still learning to read wind. While I understand the complaint regarding the target faces and F-Class, the facility is a nice addition to the shooting community. My guess is that once F-Class gets firmly rooted there, changes will be forthcoming.

RMD

 

[lal357]

well it happened again shot a vintage sniper match friday with cmp and had some problems with the electronic scoring system and had to cancel the 600 yard leg and shoot 300 yard twice . it did get me thinking about it there were guys from all over not just alabama and it must have been disheartening to not be able to shoot a match that you traveled a long way to shoot correctly. plus the fact some us me included didnt bring enough ammo to shoot it twice and had to buy factory ammo there so we could finish the match at 300

 

[Heman]

Just out of curiosity how does the system work at 300 but not at 600 as I'm not familiar with the KTS targets or Talladega? We run SMT's at Atterbury and what the NRA will be putting in for 2018.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

well it happened again shot a vintage sniper match friday with cmp and had some problems with the electronic scoring system and had to cancel the 600 yard leg and shoot 300 yard twice . it did get me thinking about it there were guys from all over not just alabama and it must have been disheartening to not be able to shoot a match that you traveled a long way to shoot correctly. plus the fact some us me included didnt bring enough ammo to shoot it twice and had to buy factory ammo there so we could finish the match at 300

Thanks for the update. They keep trying to fix the problem with software upgrades, when the recurring issues seem to suggest there is a significant hardware component to the problem.

Thanks for the update. I was optimistic that I could compete in several matches at Talladega in 2017. Not looking promising now. I'll keep an eye on it though. It is such a nice facility for them to keep letting target issues drag it down.

 

[DRNewcomb]

Just out of curiosity how does the system work at 300 but not at 600 as I'm not familiar with the KTS targets or Talladega? We run SMT's at Atterbury and what the NRA will be putting in for 2018.

I have not been there but it appears that there are remotely operated targets at 200, 300 & 600 yards. The shooters stay in one spot.

 

[lal357]

Thanks for the update. They keep trying to fix the problem with software upgrades, when the recurring issues seem to suggest there is a significant hardware component to the problem.

Thanks for the update. I was optimistic that I could compete in several matches at Talladega in 2017. Not looking promising now. I'll keep an eye on it though. It is such a nice facility for them to keep letting target issues drag it down.

I was told that the computers part of it couldn't handle the workload of a full blown match ie a lot of input coming in at once . not sure if it's true or not .... I knew something had to be wrong when it scored 2 zero's for me and my groups kept going to 6 o'clock I found out everyone's was doing the same thing

 

[lal357]

I have not been there but it appears that there are remotely operated targets at 200, 300 & 600 yards. The shooters stay in one spot.

They are which is nice

 

[lal357]

Just out of curiosity how does the system work at 300 but not at 600 as I'm not familiar with the KTS targets or Talladega? We run SMT's at Atterbury and what the NRA will be putting in for 2018.

Don't know it worked fine at 300 screwed at 600

 

[Bindi2]

If the targets used at CMP are Kongsberg cover the electronic box on each target with a air cell insulation sheet so no direct sun heats the box.

 

[DRNewcomb]

If the targets used at CMP are Kongsberg cover the electronic box on each target with a air cell insulation sheet so no direct sun heats the box.

Could be. In my limited experience with Norwegian electronics, one issue I found is that they don't really have a good concept of dealing with heat. We had to keep a lot of cold air moving through that Simrad EM121 whenever it was turned on.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

If the targets used at CMP are Kongsberg cover the electronic box on each target with a air cell insulation sheet so no direct sun heats the box.

The firing line is covered, so everything is in the shade. Further, most of the electronics are in the environmentally controlled room at the center of the firing line. The issues at Talladega seem to be more in the targets themselves and the centralized networking and computing infrastructure rather than the individual monitors. The problems also seem to pop up when the scoring and target system are under centralized control during matches. We've seen far fewer problems when shooting under individual user control than during matches.

Could be. In my limited experience with Norwegian electronics, one issue I found is that they don't really have a good concept of dealing with heat. We had to keep a lot of cold air moving through that Simrad EM121 whenever it was turned on.

If heat were the problem, we'd expect more problems in July. Most of the big failures were reported in Oct (2015 and 2016) and Dec. If the problems are correlated with a systematic cause, it seems more related to organized matches with lots of shooters.

 

[Barrel Nut]

..... snip.............. If the problems are correlated with a systematic cause, it seems more related to organized matches with lots of shooters.

Well, the good news is that this is a self-correcting fault. If CMP Talladega continue to host organized matches with large numbers of shooters that turn out to be big flops, then pretty soon nobody will attend the matches....................problem solved.

Time to ask Kongsberg for their 2 million bucks back.

 

[lal357]

If the targets used at CMP are Kongsberg cover the electronic box on each target with a air cell insulation sheet so no direct sun heats the box.

Temple Saturday struggled to get to 35 there

 

[Bindi2]

Its the control box on the target frame not the monitors on the firing line. The box closet to the battery/power box/transmissions carries the most load, when that goes down the whole line goes. If one of the others over heat it is just that target that goes down as a rule.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Well, the good news is that this is a self-correcting fault. If CMP Talladega continue to host organized matches with large numbers of shooters that turn out to be big flops, then pretty soon nobody will attend the matches....................problem solved.

Time to ask Kongsberg for their 2 million bucks back.

It seems CMP has climbed into bed with Kongsberg and is functioning as a distributor or dealer in the US.

CMP definitely needs business and attendance for the Talladega facility to remain open. However, it is unclear what part of that business needs to be organized matches. If most of their income is based on shooters just paying the daily rate to shoot, then the functional issues that only effect organized matches likely won't put them out of business.

From the lackadaisical manner in which they are approaching the problems, it would surprise me if their survival really depended on match business. Sure, they might really be that stupid, but it seems more likely that they can survive without the organized match business, so they are not really making it a priority. (But they are pretending to.) They seem more to be protecting their reputation rather than really fixing the problem.

All their F-Class business to date amounts to less than $5000. The planned 4 F-Class matches per year is unlikely to ever amount to more than $10k annually. Even throwing in High Power matches, once the problem costs vastly more to fix than it will net in a couple years, I would not be optimistic about it getting fixed.

 

[Heman]

It seems CMP has climbed into bed with Kongsberg and is functioning as a distributor or dealer in the US.

CMP definitely needs business and attendance for the Talladega facility to remain open. However, it is unclear what part of that business needs to be organized matches. If most of their income is based on shooters just paying the daily rate to shoot, then the functional issues that only effect organized matches likely won't put them out of business.

From the lackadaisical manner in which they are approaching the problems, it would surprise me if their survival really depended on match business.

They have climbed into bed big time with them. The KTS systems are what they're wanting to put into Camp Perry. If they can't run their facility with those targets their matches at CP won't go well either. To fix the problems will probably cost money and hurt their credibility but more important the ego of Mr. Johnson.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

They have climbed into bed big time with them. The KTS systems are what they're wanting to put into Camp Perry. If they can't run their facility with those targets their matches at CP won't go well either. To fix the problems will probably cost money and hurt their credibility but more important the ego of Mr. Johnson.

I hope someone alerts Camp Perry to the issues.

Given this, one might think CMP would be more eager to get the bugs out and demonstrate that the system works in organized matches at Talladega.