Cool never a problem here . Larry
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Button VS Cut rifling question
- Thread starter AKShooter
- Start date
Many years ago, I went to Texas with Kenny Jarrett (Jarrett Rifles) to see his old friend Harold Broughton. Harold built his own machine and was making button rifled barrels. He said buttons will sometimes slip inside the barrel and the twist rate would be a little off, or not consistent - like Ackleyman II mentioned. So, he built his machine with a guide that made sure the rod pulling the button rotated at the twist rate of the guide being used, which made the rifling twist come out consistent. Mr. Harold sold everything to Kenny, who is still using it to make some really nice barrels.
Northridge
Gold $$ Contributor
What makes a good barrel? I've asked myself this question many times and have been on a quest for the answer to that question for quite sometime. Is it the lapping? Is it the stress relieving process? Is it the type of rifling process? Is it how uniform the bore is over it's length ? Is it bore diameter? Harness of bore? Cryo process? Rifling geometry? The point is I think all aspects matter and if all things are weighed equally you will be hard pressed to find a individual winner even in the benchrest arena. I've Handled almost every manufacture of barrel produced in the USA and frankly there is not a clear winner. Now don't get me wrong there are things about each manufacture I like and other things I don't but if it is properly stress relieved, lapped properly & fit correctly it's left to reloading skills and gun handling at the end of the day. Happy shopping that shilen barrel will I suspect be just fine.
Shawn williams
Shawn williams
I think it all about theWhat makes a good barrel? I've asked myself this question many times and have been on a quest for the answer to that question for quite sometime. Is it the lapping? Is it the stress relieving process? Is it the type of rifling process? Is it how uniform the bore is over it's length ? Is it bore diameter? Harness of bore? Cryo process? Rifling geometry? The point is I think all aspects matter and if all things are weighed equally you will be hard pressed to find a individual winner even in the benchrest arena. I've Handled almost every manufacture of barrel produced in the USA and frankly there is not a clear winner. Now don't get me wrong there are things about each manufacture I like and other things I don't but if it is properly stress relieved, lapped properly & fit correctly it's left to reloading skills and gun handling at the end of the day. Happy shopping that shilen barrel will I suspect be just fine.
Shawn williams
There are several kinds of barrelsWhat makes a good barrel? I've asked myself this question many times and have been on a quest for the answer to that question for quite sometime. Is it the lapping? Is it the stress relieving process? Is it the type of rifling process? Is it how uniform the bore is over it's length ? Is it bore diameter? Harness of bore? Cryo process? Rifling geometry? The point is I think all aspects matter and if all things are weighed equally you will be hard pressed to find a individual winner even in the benchrest arena. I've Handled almost every manufacture of barrel produced in the USA and frankly there is not a clear winner. Now don't get me wrong there are things about each manufacture I like and other things I don't but if it is properly stress relieved, lapped properly & fit correctly it's left to reloading skills and gun handling at the end of the day. Happy shopping that shilen barrel will I suspect be just fine.
Shawn williams
1 Junk
2 Average
3 Good
4 Excellent
5 Every so often a Hummer
All the above can be cut or button.
Larry
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I'll eventually weigh in with more, but right now I have the first button rifled 308 I've ever used from a new manufacturer. My results at 600 yards in Oak Ridge were the best vertical I've ever seen from one of my 308s.
There have been bench rest records set with button rifled barrels that the average shooter can never achieve. The truth is, for 99% of us pretty much any barrel we buy from a "custom" barrel shop can shoot better than we can, except on the WWW where everyone shoots .0's
There have been bench rest records set with button rifled barrels that the average shooter can never achieve. The truth is, for 99% of us pretty much any barrel we buy from a "custom" barrel shop can shoot better than we can, except on the WWW where everyone shoots .0's
I don't think almost all shooters can see the difference. If a barrel maker needs to make a profit go button. The alternatives would appear to be cut - making for slow production and pounding (hammer forged) possibly requiring costly massive machinery. I would guess that buttoned rifled barrels would need some type of stress relief (heating in simple oven hotter than a turkey) after the rifling process and lapping both for smoothing the inside and maintaining dimensions. Contouring would be done after button rifling as internal stresses might be introduced upon the rifling process (snake eating an orange). I would also guess that variations of twist rates might occur in a button rifled barrel meaning that some 8 twist production might measure 7.75 to 8.25 sometimes in the same barrel.
I have never seen a button rifle process but would guess the best way to do this would be to push the button through the barrel rotating the barrel around the button. Dragging the button would require some heavy duty tensile strength rod and a way to connect rod and button so it would not bust loose. I would guess that some way would be used to keep the push button rifle rod from buckling under heavy duty force.
I have seen some common ordinary production rifles made by Savage shoot very well and whether made by button or hammer Savage did not agonize over their production. I would guess that they might not be so smooth inside (clean it when needed) but the dimensional aspects would approach those of a "boutique" barrel that would be incapable of correcting poor fire control or bad ammo.
I have never seen a button rifle process but would guess the best way to do this would be to push the button through the barrel rotating the barrel around the button. Dragging the button would require some heavy duty tensile strength rod and a way to connect rod and button so it would not bust loose. I would guess that some way would be used to keep the push button rifle rod from buckling under heavy duty force.
I have seen some common ordinary production rifles made by Savage shoot very well and whether made by button or hammer Savage did not agonize over their production. I would guess that they might not be so smooth inside (clean it when needed) but the dimensional aspects would approach those of a "boutique" barrel that would be incapable of correcting poor fire control or bad ammo.
There two advantages to a cut-rifled barrel, IMHO.
1A. you can have the exact twist rate you want, to match a specific bullet.
1B. you can have a gain twist if you see the value. I do.
2. compared to a button rifled barrel, the stress imparted by a cut-rifled barrel is about zero.
This is my personal opinion, which, like free advice, is worth about what you pay for it...
1A. you can have the exact twist rate you want, to match a specific bullet.
1B. you can have a gain twist if you see the value. I do.
2. compared to a button rifled barrel, the stress imparted by a cut-rifled barrel is about zero.
This is my personal opinion, which, like free advice, is worth about what you pay for it...
There two advantages to a cut-rifled barrel, IMHO.
1A. you can have the exact twist rate you want, to match a specific bullet.
1B. you can have a gain twist if you see the value. I do.
2. compared to a button rifled barrel, the stress imparted by a cut-rifled barrel is about zero.
This is my personal opinion, which, like free advice, is worth about what you pay for it...
A good start and I will add to this.....and this has been beaten to death.....and before I get deep into this I will say all barrel making methods can make a very good barrel and can make garbage. It goes back to the barrel maker paying attention the best they can to all aspects of they're manufacturing process.
Button rifling work hardens the bore so on average a button barrel (barrel life wise) will not last as long as a cut barrel. On average the cut barrel will go 15% to as much as 25% longer in barrel life. This isn't just me saying this or that either....for one it's what I've always seen and also based on actual data from ammunition test barrels that we make for bullet makers, ammo makers etc....They keep exact round counts and load data and test the barrels in controlled conditions. Even when the button barrel and cut barrel where made out of the same lot of steel.
Twist rate uniformity....cut barrel wins the consistency hands down. Some button makers are trying to help guide the rotation of the button. The twist is built into the button. What happens is if the button hits a hard spot or soft spot in the steel usually it will slow the button down. The button can speed back up to what it is suppose to be doing for the twist but when this happens either way you end up with a non uniform twist or a barrel with a negative twist rate. This leads to accuracy issues and to me the barrel is more load temperamental as to what it will shoot etc...I've seen button barrels where the twist rate went slower towards the muzzle to the tune of as much as .75 of a twist.
Bore and groove size diameters and uniformity. You can get a button barrel with a uniform bore and groove size but again the consistency goes to a cut barrel. Why? Button rifling is a cold swagging process. Button rifling doesn't remove the material when making the grooves it displaces the material. This is a common misconception. Where as cut rifling we physically cut the groove away. During button rifling the steel will expand and relax as the button goes down the barrel. This also goes back to work hardening the bore also. The button maker if they use a different button or gets a different batch of steel or uses a steel with a different diameter will have to play with button sizes. The more uniform the bore and groove sizes are it will only help the accuracy of the barrel and velocities and pressures. We just inspected (in the last 6 weeks) a couple of button rifled ammunition test barrels. The ammo maker sent them to us to look at and gauge them because our barrels where running right on the money. They couldn't figure out why they where getting pressures a full 8000psi above max. and couldn't get the velocity. I told them my guess was the bores where under size. Sure enough the bore and groove size where both a full .0005" under size and it wasn't just for one barrel either. It was for a few of them. This is why some button makers offer different grades of barrels. Uniformity.
Also they have to button rifle the barrels as I said before as a blank (no contour). Any variance in the o.d. of the barrel will effect the uniformity of the bore size as well. They button it as a blank and then have to restress relieve the blank and then they contour the barrel. It's the only way you can come close to doing a consistent bore size on them. The other problem you have is residual stress in the blank. No barrel maker can measure for stress in the blank. When the barrel gets contoured and during the turning operation the turning work if it hits a stress point will relieve the stress and this will cause the bore to open up on you. Again goes back to consistency. The last place you want the bore to go sour is at the muzzles crown. If this opens up when the muzzle is threaded and or just cut and crowned it will/can have a negative impact on accuracy. Same goes for fluting. This is why some button barrel makers say if you flute they're barrels it voids any warranty etc... We contour our barrels primarily before reaming and rifling. If we are going to lose the barrel due to any residual stress it will happen here for us. With cut rifling not inducing any stress into the blank we don't have the problem with bore size uniformity and this includes fluting the barrel after it's rifled etc....
Here is a couple of good videos (we didn't make them and had nothing to do with them)....
The first one below shows the muzzle going sour/opening up during/after threading. All of the first barrels are button rifled. The last two are ours. The point of the video isn't to hack on any barrel makers but to make the muzzle thread diameters as large as possible to help fight the bores going sour.
The next one is a button barrel. Watch real closely right about the 8 second mark when the button goes into the barrel. Watch the face of the barrel blank deform. You can see it better starting at the 6:20 mark and also look at the face of the barrel at the 6:40 mark. You can see the steel deform.
Also at the 5:10 mark they talk about straightening the steel bars. Bad! You never want to straighten a barrel blank. Especially after it's been finished. Trying to straighten the barrel blanks induces more stress into the steel and some wonder why the POI shift on some barrels! Especially as they heat up. It will work against you.
With all of this being said...when we we're starting up we we're offered jobs at a couple of different button barrel makers. I politely declined the offer. One asked as to why? I said we know the short comings of a button made barrel. I cannot work at a company where I don't believe in the product. I couldn't talk to a customer or look them in the eye knowing and or feeling we are not making the best product out there.
It all goes back to consistency. The more consistent the bore and groove sizes are over the length of the barrel, the more uniform the twist, the straighter the barrel blank and the more stress free it is the more forgiving the barrel is going to be. No way around it. Again a button barrel can be a very good barrel I just don't see the consistency from one to the next like a cut barrel is.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
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We are fortunate to have someone, like Frank, participate in these conversations. His offerings displace many of the myths and non-truths that circulate about barrel making.
Frank
Do you happen to know what's the smallest a 6mm muzzle can be threaded before the bore open up ? 5/8" ? Same question for a .22 .... 1/2" thread ?.
So if you thread a sporter weight barrel for a muzzle break or a suppressor you need to back bore the rifling ?
Maybe a throating reamer would work to remove the riflings for the length of the threads?
Thanks for the info and the video.
Hal
Do you happen to know what's the smallest a 6mm muzzle can be threaded before the bore open up ? 5/8" ? Same question for a .22 .... 1/2" thread ?.
So if you thread a sporter weight barrel for a muzzle break or a suppressor you need to back bore the rifling ?
Maybe a throating reamer would work to remove the riflings for the length of the threads?
Thanks for the info and the video.
Hal
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Frank
Do you happen to know what's the smallest a 6mm muzzle can be threaded before the bore open up ? 5/8" ? Same question for a .22 .... 1/2" thread ?.
So if you thread a sporter weight barrel for a muzzle break or a suppressor you need to back bore the rifling ?
Maybe a throating reamer would work to remove the riflings for the length of the threads?
Thanks for the info and the video.
Hal
Hal, The video of the muzzle threads where the bores opened up are on AR barrels with 1/2" threads. Robert made it a point to make the threads as large as possible and if memory serves me correctly he liked .700" diameter threads.
If it's a cut rifled barrel I just don't see the problem and have no worries. We do a lot of 5/8 threads on 6.5mm and .30cal. barrels and haven't seen an issue. We've even done it for ammunition test barrels for Lake City Army Ammo Plant in .30cal. with 5/8 threads and we supply inspection test results on the bore and groove sizes with each barrel and we haven't had a problem.
Hope that answers your question.
Later, Frank
Hal, The video of the muzzle threads where the bores opened up are on AR barrels with 1/2" threads. Robert made it a point to make the threads as large as possible and if memory serves me correctly he liked .700" diameter threads.
If it's a cut rifled barrel I just don't see the problem and have no worries. We do a lot of 5/8 threads on 6.5mm and .30cal. barrels and haven't seen an issue. We've even done it for ammunition test barrels for Lake City Army Ammo Plant in .30cal. with 5/8 threads and we supply inspection test results on the bore and groove sizes with each barrel and we haven't had a problem.
Hope that answers your question.
Later, Frank
Frank
Thanks for the answering my questions and for sharing information.
Hal
Frank
Thanks for the answering my questions and for sharing information.
Hal
Hal, I should mention this as well in regards to muzzle brakes, suppressor attachment devices....be careful on how much you tighten the brakes onto the barrels. If a guy goes nuts and cranks the brake on really tight you can actually distort the bore of the barrel. This will effect the accuracy as it's effecting the crown etc...yes having a larger thread will help counter this but is not the cure all.
I put the brakes on and just snug them up. I normally use blue loctite on the threads as well. This will help ensure that the brake won't loosen up on you. If it loosens up it will bounce around/vibrate and cause issues also.
If you have a gun and don't think it is shooting and has a brake on it...take the brake off and shoot it that way to double check. If the gun goes to shooting excellent than look at how tight the brake was put on. Also make sure you have proper clearance of the i.d. of the brake for the given caliber. Not enough clearance and you can get bullet strikes etc...
Later, Frank
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Northridge
Gold $$ Contributor
I cut a set of threads today 1/2x 28 and the bore did not move on a 30 cal barrel it was a button barrel.
George, all I can suggest is to go with the largest thread diameter possible and allway plug the bore before and after fitting and threading. For sure non of these discussions are constants. I have found where some barrels will bell or relax from single point cut and button pulled manufactors alike. 30 cal defiantly is about the cut off where smaller diameter threads will relax vs smaller bores for obvious reasons.. I find a sloppy or un square shoulder on a small muzzle brake tenon will flex muzzle brake tenon when tightened causing accuracy problems.
Shawn Williams
If you have a gun and don't think it is shooting and has a brake on it...take the brake off and shoot it that way to double check. If the gun goes to shooting excellent than look at how tight the brake was put on. Also make sure you have proper clearance of the i.d. of the brake for the given caliber. Not enough clearance and you can get bullet strikes etc...
Later, Frank
Could a brake be acting as a barrel tuner also?
If you do load testing with both the brake on and off the rifle; with no luck with it on then of course I guess there is some issue.
I've read a lot of stories where people's rifles go to crap once they put a brake on and wonder if you can always blame the the brake or machine work or the effects of removing the metal.
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Does the same as a tuner if it isn't tight. But it can change the tune but a tuner is adjustable LarryCould a brake be acting as a barrel tuner in some cases?
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