Reloading for f-class and other competition

[Oregondoug]

So I want to know: how "detailed" of a job are most successful High Power competition shooters doing as far as case prep and component selection as compared to, say, Benchrest shooters?
Obviously everything COULD be an advantage to make your ammo as consistent as possible, but since we are not shooting bench style, at what point is it just throwing time and money down a hole?
Reasoning for me is, we aren't going to have the advantage of shooting off a bench with limited physical contact with the firearm. Especially the guys shooting sling or multiple positions. I shoot F class, but even still, I am subject to the stability and other variables as I shoot off a bipod.
So, if my shooting style will never result in the bench rest-level shots (i.e. shooting for three or five shots in a ragged hole) do I spend the time prepping like a BR shooter?
My case prep consists of reaming the primer pockets, deburr the flash hole, and inside neck ream for new cases. I trim length as needed, and select the best bullets and load as accurately as I can.
Since a weekend of hipower comp can use up almost 200 rounds I'm loading up to 300 rounds at a time, so I wanted your input about how far others take their loading for the sport.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The attention to detail that some/many F-Class shooters pay in the reloading process is approaching that of BR. It's not quite up to that level for most, but it's getting there. FWIW - five shots in one ragged hole will usually be about 0.2-0.3 MOA precision. This level of precision is readily achievable with quality F-TR or F-Open rifles and a even a moderate amount of attention to detail at the reloading bench. Whether the shooter is capable of that level of precision is another story. If not, I would suggest practicing until you are.

F-Class and Conventional are all about precision over long strings of fire (25+ shots). The overall level of precision may not be quite up to BR standards, but but most BR shooters aren't shooting 25+ shots in a string. The reloading requirements for each are therefore slightly different. F-Class requires good precision, I think most would agree that around 0.5 MOA (X-ring diameter) or better is desirable. We're not talking groups in the "ones" or less that BR shooters get routinely, but good, solid precision. Secondly, the load needs to maintain that level of precision for 25+ shot strings of fire. That means optimization of charge weight/primer to minimize velocity excursions. Just as important, that precision needs to be maintained over the entire string, or you're likely to start dropping more points when everything heats up a few rounds into the string and velocity varies more dramatically. So good precision that can be maintained over 25+ shot courses of fire is really where you want to be.

 

[barefooter56]

So I want to know: how "detailed" of a job are most successful High Power competition shooters doing as far as case prep and component selection as compared to, say, Benchrest shooters?
Obviously everything COULD be an advantage to make your ammo as consistent as possible, but since we are not shooting bench style, at what point is it just throwing time and money down a hole?
Reasoning for me is, we aren't going to have the advantage of shooting off a bench with limited physical contact with the firearm. Especially the guys shooting sling or multiple positions. I shoot F class, but even still, I am subject to the stability and other variables as I shoot off a bipod.
So, if my shooting style will never result in the bench rest-level shots (i.e. shooting for three or five shots in a ragged hole) do I spend the time prepping like a BR shooter?
My case prep consists of reaming the primer pockets, deburr the flash hole, and inside neck ream for new cases. I trim length as needed, and select the best bullets and load as accurately as I can.
Since a weekend of hipower comp can use up almost 200 rounds I'm loading up to 300 rounds at a time, so I wanted your input about how far others take their loading for the sport.

gstaylorg,
Hid a sentence in the bottom of his first paragraph that is the hardest ,most overlooked part of precision shooting.
" Whether the SHOOTER is capable of that level of precision is another story. If not, I suggest practicing until you are"
Once you get a load that is a consistent half minute to 1 MOA in accuracy. More accuracy can be found faster by working on reading conditions , trigger control and position behind the rifle than fiddling with the load. Yeah it adds to the expense can be frustrating and tedious but its whats going to make you a winner. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Intheshop]

Quality live fire,and dryfire practice IMO will yield quicker results than heading down the rabbit hole looking for "tricks" on the reloading bench.Think about guys shooting factory ammo.

We have our own 100m range.But,just going out there sending lead downrange isn't the answer (for me).The further I get from the fundamental's,the further it is "back" when in a slump.And there will always be off days.So,if it isn't quality practice then,it's not moving fwd.

Have really been trying to get run out under control in the reloading process.Because that's a fundamental,for me.Others may have different issues.Next is bullet seating with the priority being "pull".Stepping up our annealing processes helped big time,but more can be done.

 

[Shynloco]

IMHO and I'm one of those BR guys, you can be one of the best shots ever, and if your loads aren't consistent and concentricity isn't even, you ain't gonna get what you want. That makes proper case prep mandatory. That's everything from case make, resizing to neck tension. And that means each and every one of your loads need to be alike and something your particular rifle likes, no matter the number of shots you are going to take. But at the same time, don't blame your loads if the shooter behind the trigger isn't as good as he or she thinks they are. Just my .02 worth.

Alex

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Most shooters would do better to focus on what there next few improvements should be.

To answer that question, it is helpful to know what your preparation is already, what scores you are shooting, and what cartridge and rifle you are shooting.

A lot of guys around here tend to assume "competitive" always means HM scores at 600-1000 yards (that's 196/200) which is what it takes to be competitive at the national level.

Most shooters I work with in real life are in their first or second year of long range shooting and still working on breaking 190/200 consistently. The reloading skills suggested by the High Masters may not make much sense or be applicable until you are breaking 190 regularly.

If you haven't shot enough matches yet to even know where you are now, I'd get out there and shoot some with your current set of reloading techniques. Pick a good match bullet with a BC at the higher end of what works in your twist rate, work up a moderate load that is accurate at 100 yards, and see what it does in an F-Class match at 600 yards. Comparing yourself to some other shooters will tell you how much effect wind had.

If your match scores tend to be well under 190 (for each 20 shot match), you have some more basic work to do (unless it was really windy and almost everyone shot under 190).

For most shooters I know, the path to 190 consistently entails:
1. Good brass (Lapua)
2. Good match bullets (Berger, Sierra, Hornady)
3. Match or benchrest primers
4. A Hodgdon Extreme powder of the appropriate burn rate
5. Moderate care in brass prep: clean, resize, uniform primer pockets, chamfer case mouths
6. An accurate factory Savage or a custom Rem 700 with a heavy barrel and appropriate twist for the caliber.
7. Weigh every powder charge
8. Fancy dies are not needed, but care in bullet seating is. Tweak OAL of the load (bullet seating depth) to find a seating depth your barrel likes with that bullet.

Neck turning, bushing dies, annealing, chronographs, optimal barrel time, and other advanced techniques are more for the path from 190-200. Get to 190 consistently first, and then build from there.

 

[Mozella]

I would add a couple of things to the above post which are pretty easy to do and not expensive. I sort both my bullets and cases by weight into three basic piles, light, medium, and heavy. I also separate components falling outside those ranges into "really light" and "really heavy", so I have five piles. I don't reject anything, but I try to have a string of 20 rounds (for scoring) made from the same pile plus two or three extras.. In other words, all rounds for the first string will be assembled from the same pile. The components outside the range of light, medium, and heavy get turned into foulers and preliminary sighters. I try to have a few extra scoring quality rounds for last minute sighters which are identical to the scoring rounds.

This sort of sorting isn't difficult and it doesn't relegate any components to the junk pile; i.e. everything gets shot, but the goal is to shoot similar components in each of the three 20 shot scoring strings. However, I really don't like handling each component individually more than necessary, so I prefer spending my efforts on improvements which involve batch processing.

Bryan Litz claims in his new book not to have found much advantage to annealing each time. I disagree. I believe it's worthwhile so I anneal each time using an inexpensive, yet very precise DIY machine using the "Skip Design". It has a nice automatic feed feature so I don't have to handle each case.

I also moly coat my bullets not so much for any effect on my barrel, but for what I believe is an advantage when it comes to seating the bullets into cases cleaned using the wet SS method. It's a quick and easy way to get a lubricant on the bullet so that seating is more uniform and, in theory at least, the bullet release should be more uniform as well. Again, this process is done in a large batch and eliminates the need to individually lubricate each case neck.

Finally, one of the important factors involves knowing what goes on during testing. If you're shooting a few 3 shot test groups and measuring the results with a coin or carpenters tape, you will be at a disadvantage.

I like to scan my test targets and score them using an expensive piece of software called On Target. I put the results into an Excel spread sheet and add chronograph data, powder type, and various notes. That way I can compare all my test batches and, after some careful study, have confidence that my competition recipe is the best one, not just a good one.

 

[Scott Harris]

So I want to know: how "detailed" of a job are most successful High Power competition shooters doing as far as case prep and component selection as compared to, say, Benchrest shooters?
Obviously everything COULD be an advantage to make your ammo as consistent as possible, but since we are not shooting bench style, at what point is it just throwing time and money down a hole?
Reasoning for me is, we aren't going to have the advantage of shooting off a bench with limited physical contact with the firearm. Especially the guys shooting sling or multiple positions. I shoot F class, but even still, I am subject to the stability and other variables as I shoot off a bipod.
So, if my shooting style will never result in the bench rest-level shots (i.e. shooting for three or five shots in a ragged hole) do I spend the time prepping like a BR shooter?
My case prep consists of reaming the primer pockets, deburr the flash hole, and inside neck ream for new cases. I trim length as needed, and select the best bullets and load as accurately as I can.
Since a weekend of hipower comp can use up almost 200 rounds I'm loading up to 300 rounds at a time, so I wanted your input about how far others take their loading for the sport.

what distance? what cartridge? what scores are you shooting now? what rifle, scope?

i would say it is very important to have good equipment if you expect to improve. you will not get good feedback from the target with poor gear/ammo. that said, there are a lot of people who have great gear and spend too much time obsessing on loads imho. compete as much as you can, and youll improve fast.

I remember one day being disappointed in my ftr score and asked German Salazar if we could trade rifles to see how id do with "good" ammo. He said, "trust me Scott, its not going to shoot any better than what you have." the truth hurts sometimes

 

[500Stroker]

The best thing you could do is to spend as much time as you can at the local long range shooting facility and, in particular, spend time with experienced shooters that can coach you through the processes of selecting the correct shooting rig for you and get you involved in procession loading for distance that you chose to shoot at. You will save allot of time and money.
Good Luck and welcome to the sport, of course you know that you will be hooked for the rest of your life.

 

[Rope2horns]

I think most would be surprised at what our current National Fclass champion DOESN'T do concerning brass prep and the like. Unless he was pulling my leg.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I have to agree with the above. I turn necks because I selected a chamber neck diameter that was a little too small for no-turn. I do a lot of one time things in my loading. Neck turning is an example. I do it once every few years when I replace my brass. Otherwise, the tools just sit in the box.

I have become an advocate of solid dies too. I created a lot of my own problems with bushing dies.

I've also found that measuring everything is a waste of time. I don't measure concentricity any more. I don't measure seating depth or shoulder bump on every round, just 5 or 10 out of a batch. I don't trim my cases, nor measure them every firing (I use a go gauge check to make sure they are safely short enough).

What I've found is that certain parameters must be within a reasonable range in order to have good ammo that performs consistently.
For example, slamming a long ogive bullet so far into the case that there is a gap between the mouth and the bullet just to get to SAAMI max length doesn't work.

[Don Fireproof Gear]
Throw away your reloading manual. In competitive shooting, we use modified chambers, throatings, and bore dimensions. Every one of those change a "normal" SAAMI chamber into a wildcat cartridge.

Learn to load a wildcat and use that knowledge to produce your loads. You will be happier with the results.
[Doff Fireproof Gear]

 

[CharlieNC]

Many of these answers reflect a popular response "my rifle shoots .5moa all day long". So why aren't the Fclass records overflowing with perfect scores? My takeaway is it is not difficult to develop .5moa loads with minimal case prep, but it is challenging to shoot 20 such loads even at 1moa, let alone .5moa.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Many of these answers reflect a popular response "my rifle shoots .5moa all day long". So why aren't the Fclass records overflowing with perfect scores? My takeaway is it is not difficult to develop .5moa loads with minimal case prep, but it is challenging to shoot 20 such loads even at 1moa, let alone .5moa.

The real answer is that most people specify accuracy from testing of five shot groups at 100 yards and most F-Class is shot from 600-1000 yards in 20 shot strings.

I've known a lot of shooters that can keep a true 0.5 MOA rifle in 1.0 MOA circle all day at 100 yards. But there are statistical laws (in addition to human error) that will put shots from a 0.5 MOA rifle and load (average five shot group size) outside of a 0.5 MOA circle during 20 shot strings.

 

[CharlieNC]

The real answer is that most people specify accuracy from testing of five shot groups at 100 yards and most F-Class is shot from 600-1000 yards in 20 shot strings.

I've known a lot of shooters that can keep a true 0.5 MOA rifle in 1.0 MOA circle all day at 100 yards. But there are statistical laws (in addition to human error) that will put shots from a 0.5 MOA rifle and load (average five shot group size) outside of a 0.5 MOA circle during 20 shot strings.

Exactly, and given this capability I suggest the scale up error is primarily the shooter. Esp in Fclass where it matters that the precision circle is also accurately centered. Groupy not matter, only scorey.

 

[Rope2horns]

The thing about Fclass is,, you can shoot the worlds smallest group in the nine ring and get your azz handed to ya.

 

[Oregondoug]

The thing about Fclass is,, you can shoot the worlds smallest group in the nine ring and get your azz handed to ya.

True, but I'd be darn happy with consistent 9's and that's WAAY better than the average guy!

 

[Naki Shooter]

Many of these answers reflect a popular response "my rifle shoots .5moa all day long". So why aren't the Fclass records overflowing with perfect scores? My takeaway is it is not difficult to develop .5moa loads with minimal case prep, but it is challenging to shoot 20 such loads even at 1moa, let alone .5moa.

Hi, Im New here, and have a question please,...which is better, and why, once fired cases, is it better to just kneck size, or full length resize before reloading?...

 

[Tony1320]

Hi, Im New here, and have a question please,...which is better, and why, once fired cases, is it better to just kneck size, or full length resize before reloading?...

Most people will probably tell you to use a full length bushing die with .001 - .002 shoulder bump.

I switched to Redding Type S dies and I'm very happy with them. I full length size every time, bumping shoulders back .002

Lots of information on here for you to research and make your own opinion

 

[Nature Boy]

The real answer is that most people specify accuracy from testing of five shot groups at 100 yards and most F-Class is shot from 600-1000 yards in 20 shot strings.

I've known a lot of shooters that can keep a true 0.5 MOA rifle in 1.0 MOA circle all day at 100 yards. But there are statistical laws (in addition to human error) that will put shots from a 0.5 MOA rifle and load (average five shot group size) outside of a 0.5 MOA circle during 20 shot strings.

I’m new to F Class too, and this is what has helped me improve the most so far. After I have a load developed at 100 yards, I move to 500 yards and practice shooting 20 shot strings. I try to observe where my mechanics are causing me to drop shots and work on my consistency.

I find myself spending a lot less time at the bench and the 100 yard line

 

[XTR]

When it comes to loading for F class, in particular F-TR you don't need to go down the brass prep rabbit hole that BR guys do. Mid range Open you might just need to if the wind isn't lumpy because dropping Xs is like dropping points in F-TR.

That said. I shoot F-TR. My loads work. Last yr:
I came one point(1X) from the 60 shot record a 600/500/300. My 308 shoots about .3 MOA vertical at 1000 yards (My ABC barrel may have something to do with that)

My routine.

1. Anneal
2. FL resize with a Redding FL bushing die
3. tumble
   
4. Trim if needed (I use a Guirard greatest trimmer since smokeless powder)
   
5. prime
6. load
7. I don't sort bullets, Bergers come out of the box consistent enough for my game
8. I do point, not sure why, but I do.

That is it. I don't mess with pockets, or turn necks. My chamber has a .342 neck, it will take un turned Lapua with out a problem (necks on loaded rounds are about .336 if I remember correctly)




That is 15 shots in a match last yr at at camp Butner. The 5 o'clock 9 was a sighter. That's a real world match group. (needed to come up a click)

If you have time there are a lot of things that may help a little, but really how much tighter do you think that vertical would be if i turned necks or messed with flash holes?