I have shot all the different weight Berger Hybrids in 308, 105gr in 6mm and the 140gr in 6.5 in multiple calibers and barrels and they all jumped between 010 and .015.
Berger Hybrids.. Jump or Jam?
- Thread starter TX65
- Start date
Unfortunately, asking a question like yours on an Internet forum and taking the responses as somehow representing valid data is a little bit risky. First you have to determine how many people posting here are genuine match winners and how many are 10 year old kids, and most importantly, how many are 35 year old geeks living in their Mom's basement and who don't even own a gun. You will get plenty of answers, but they are not necessarily meaningful. You get the point.
For example, there are plenty of people finding good accuracy by jamming VLDs into the lands, as you point out. But do they do that because they read an Internet post or did they do testing? And how many of them tested really long jumps? I assume you read the Berger write-up on jumping the VLD's. Until reading that I would have never tested jumps longer than about .020". But I discovered that one of my F/TR rifles loves Berger 80gr VLDs jumped .050" and nearly as much at .080" jump. It does NOT shoot these rounds well if they're jammed even though another F/TR rifle I own shoots the 90gr VLDs best with a .010" jam. But I didn't know that for sure until after testing a wide range of seating depths. In other words, you gotta' test YOUR rifle (as others have pointed out) and you gotta' go careful and meaningful testing, and that takes the kind of effort that many people simply aren't wiling to make.
To answer your original question, I'll say that my 6mm BR competition rifle shoots the Berger Hybrid 105gr bullets best at a .005" jump, but it's nearly as good at a .010" or a .015" jump. The same gun prefers the Berger VLD 105gr bullets at a jump of .008" jump and it is significantly worse at .005" jump or a .015" jump; i.e. the seating depth range of the VLD is very narrow compared with the 105gr Hybrid bullet. But that's just in MY guns. Your guns are likely to be different. If you don't test a jump of .080", for example, how are you going to know that it's not pure Nirvana for your particular set-up?
Remember, you're looking for tiny differences and this means you must measure very carefully and study more than just a few 5-shot groups. Good luck.
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You guys realize that this thread is 5 years old, right?
It's still good to bring up old threads like this for the new guys.
For me when I start load developing, I always start +.010 and then from there there's only one way to go and that's further away.
Agreed, was just poking a little fun at Mozella since he was directly quoting the OP and giving him an answer. OP hasn't been on the forum for over a year.
Take a peek what Bryan Litz says here:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...how-to-load-hybrid-bullets-for-best-accuracy/
dmoran
Donovan Moran
@doninreno
Just a heads up: this thread is a few yours old. The last post before yours was 2016, and the original 1st post was 2011.
The person your replying to (artbosco) hasn't been active since 2015.
Just saying........
Just a heads up: this thread is a few yours old. The last post before yours was 2016, and the original 1st post was 2011.
The person your replying to (artbosco) hasn't been active since 2015.
Just saying........
I shoot the 155H in 308 in a 1.10 twist barrel I found the best group started at 15-20 thou off and was consistent to about 80 thou off. I load them at 30thou off it gives a good tolerance leeway for bullet variances. I weight sort all my bullets into 0.01 gram batches I find quite a big tolerance larger than what is claimed and also on the ogive so loading to what you might think is 5 thou off I found the group really opened up as in reality some may have been touching some may have been slightly jammed and some are that slightly jumped. Much better to be in an area that is at least a consistent jam or jump. Berger need to get their act back together or they could find people switching brands once again. I am collecting the real strays if Berger would ever like the evidence. Just not sure how I go sending them back from Aus.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Both! I have had equal success jamming hybrids and jumping them in 6mm, 7mm, .30, and .338.
D-4297
Gold $$ Contributor
My barrel seems to prefer .005 off touch on the 185 and 200 hybrid . But to any new reloader / shooter . I suggest doing the research / Testing , and find out what your rifle likes , and shoots best . What works in Bob , or Bill , or John's rifle may not be worth a carp in yours . Rifles are like children . Ain't no two of them alike . Nor do they like the same stuff .
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
The entire purpose behind the hybrid ogive design was to mimic the beneficial effect on seating depth tolerance often observed with tangent ogive bullets - i.e. an effect not always observed with purely secant ogive bullets. In other words, keep the long secant ogive nose that produces favorable BCs, and lose the abrupt transition from nose to bearing surface found in secant ogive bullets that can often be very finicky in terms of seating depth optimization.
Exactly where hybrid ogive bullets will tune optimally in a given setup must be determined experimentally.
Exactly where hybrid ogive bullets will tune optimally in a given setup must be determined experimentally.
dcali
Bullet Maker
While I wouldn’t take this as gospel, my experience is the same regardless of ogive design or caliber. Pretty much everything shoots reasonably well when jammed. Some bullets will shoot a little better jumped - very often .010 to .020. I haven’t needed to test beyond that very much, but I have also seen good results at long jumps- about .100-.120.
That’s not the case every time, but it’s true in my rifles more often than not. I haven’t found secants to be more difficult to load than tangents. I might be willing say that tangents have wider nodes, but I’m not 100% convinced of that in general. It could just be my experience with my rifles.
That’s not the case every time, but it’s true in my rifles more often than not. I haven’t found secants to be more difficult to load than tangents. I might be willing say that tangents have wider nodes, but I’m not 100% convinced of that in general. It could just be my experience with my rifles.
I am thinking you will be happy you tried them!, 1 used the hybrid bullets for the duration of a hunt. With combined kills of almost 100 animals, all the way out to the 1000 yard mark, I would say they work great!
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
I'm curious.... when you say "jammed" ... how jammed is it?
If length to ogive is say 2.240" how deep do you seat the bullet? 2.250? Longer?
Thanx.
dcali
Bullet Maker
I just pick a length that is as close as I can get to just touching and call that zero. If it’s off a few thou, I don’t sweat it. Then I test jams just like jumps +.005 , +.010, etc. I don’t usually go beyond +.010. But you have to test.
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
I was told by an experienced reloader that if you are going to jam, go at least 15 thou in. So if BTO touching is 2.240” I would test at 2.255” or even 2.260” just to make sure even if few bullets are slightly shorter than the others, they all are Jammed.
I’ve been shooting 140gr Berger Elite Hunters out of my 6.5 Creedmoor hunting rig. Pretty sure that bullet is the same as the Hybrid, just the hunting version. Load development was easy. Gave absolutely no thought to OAL other than making sure they would feed from the magazine.
I know that doesn’t help you much with BTO nodes but does say that the Hybrids are pretty jump friendly.
John
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