Winchester 220 Swift Brass

[dedogs]

I did not say my dies move the shoulder back as in ‘bump back’ because I know that is impossible

Would you please explain why this is impossible?

 

[rockable]

Well,,the weirdness continues. Today, I went to the range to fireform some of this brass. All were loaded with 36g of Varget and 52g SMk's...at just over SAAMI COAL specs, far off the lands.

The first 6 shot were OK but then I extracted one that was all but separated. Then, if I fired 3 more and noticed fracturing at almost the same spot on the cases. I packed this one up and brought it home. I have shot hundreds of rounds in this factory chambered Savage BV12SS. It is not the gun.

What do you think is causing my problem, if not defective brass? Remember, this is first time being fired. Also there were no abnormal marks on the case head and the primers looked normal.

 

[John Russell]

Well, the weirdness continues. Today, I went to the range to fireform some of this brass. All were loaded with 36g of Varget and 52g SMk's...at just over SAAMI COAL specs, far off the lands.

The first 6 shot were OK but then I extracted one that was all but separated. Then, if I fired 3 more and noticed fracturing at almost the same spot on the cases. I packed this one up and brought it home. I have shot hundreds of rounds in this factory chambered Savage BV12SS. It is not the gun.

What do you think is causing my problem, if not defective brass? Remember, this is first time being fired. Also there were no abnormal marks on the case head and the primers looked normal.

If you have, "but then I extracted one that was all but separated", then you have headspace problems. Cases can not have head separations with a case that is a good fit to the chamber.

From the photos you posted, you DO have serious headspace problems.

Did you FL size this bunch of cases before loading them?

 

[6MMsteve]

yep the Old swift case head split ring thang, my 98 mau done this when I loaded them hot for a few months, lost headspace scrap piled the rifle,

John Russell, the forum member said he sized loaded rounds with a body die, if I had a body die it would not touch the shoulder because the shoulder is not part of the body, my cases have a die body, shoulder and neck and then there is that part of the case that protrudes from the die, that part is referred to as being the case head. And then there are impressionable reloaders, the manufacturer claims the die is a body die; problem, all of my sizing dies are body dies with the ability to size the case body and shoulder meaning my dies can control the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.


And no I did not say my dies move the shoulder back as in ‘bump back’ because I know that is impossible but I am not an impressionable reloader. And then there is the new fad; reloaders sizing loaded ammo without the bushing and thinking they are sizing the body of the case only. I have had the ability and dies to size loaded ammo long before the bushing die, I choose not to because I believe it is a bad habit. I believe the reloader should know if the case will allow the bolt to close before they seat a bullet.


F. Guffey

 

[rockable]

I did not FL size them but the one that failed worst WAS full length sized. They are new cases, so I loaded them up to fireform. Headspace was my guess.

 

[fguffey]

just like an FL die.

John Russell, 'just like a full length die?', full length die has the ability to size the neck, shoulder and case body; there are reloaders that believe they can move the shoulder back, I say that is impossible. I can shorten the case body between the shoulder and case head with a sizing die, I can not shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head without case body support, again, when I size a case the shoulder does not move.

If I attempt to shorten the length of a case between the shoulder and case head without body support the case will collapse. As the case collapses the case body starts to fold like an accordion creating bellows at the case body/shoulder juncture. The juncture separates the body of the case from the beginning of the shoulder.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

What do you think is causing my problem, if not defective brass?

Reloaders on reloading forums, there are things like step sequences that reloaders can not grasp. I say: "When sizing a case I find it impossible to move the shoulder back". And then for years and years it has been repeated over and over like 'to be accepted' in the reloading world you must repeat after me. "The firing pin strikes the primer and then the case, bullet and powder is driven to the front of the chamber. And then the case strops traveling forward, the primer is busted than then the bang". I even say "think about it", if the case is pushed to the shoulder of the chamber before the bang the case does not have a choice but to stretch/separate between the case head and case body. I insist on knowing the amount of clearance as in the difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and case length from the shoulder to the case head. I have said I have fired cases in chambers with .127" clearance without the shoulder moving and that does not provoke a reloader to think, it only makes them mad. I even go to the trouble to explain the case head on those cases in the long chamber never leaves the bolt face meaning the shoulder was not forward, the shoulder on my fired cases is not the came shoulder I started with before firing but if it was I would have problems with case stretch and or separation between the case head and case body.

The part about a reloader not being able to grasp: If the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder of the chamber before the bang the case head is not setting against the bolt face. If the case head is not setting against the bolt face when the case fires the case body locks onto the chamber wall; meaning, the case stretches between the case head and case body. I know; everyone is sooo confused but if the reloader had a plan he would plan to reduce the clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber. I say the shoulder on my cases do not move when fired, I say the shoulder on my fired cases is not the same shoulder as the shoulder on my cases before firing. And again reloaders claim they are sooo confused.

I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel and then there is distinguishing the difference between a case that has a shoulder that is driven forward before the case body expands and locks onto the chamber and the case with a shoulder that does not move when the firing pin crushes the primer. Again, I have killer firing pins.

F. Guffey

 

[M-61]

Not a chance of following the above......so
To the OP just to be clear:
The pics you provided are all the new Winchester brass you purchased?
Other brass that you reloaded and shot has NONE of this happening to it?

 

[John Russell]

John Russell, 'just like a full length die?', full length die has the ability to size the neck, shoulder and case body; there are reloaders that believe they can move the shoulder back, I say that is impossible. I can shorten the case body between the shoulder and case head with a sizing die, I can not shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head without case body support, again, when I size a case the shoulder does not move.

If I attempt to shorten the length of a case between the shoulder and case head without body support the case will collapse. As the case collapses the case body starts to fold like an accordion creating bellows at the case body/shoulder juncture. The juncture separates the body of the case from the beginning of the shoulder.

F. Guffey

Mr. Guffey... you seem desperate to save face, by parsing words... "It depends on what the meaning of "is"... "is".

Redding developed the body die - Redding decides what it can and does do - not you.
The body die does the same as an FL Bushing die, if the bushing is removed... but it is cheaper because it is not made to take a bushing.

Here is the description from the Redding catalogue:

Body Dies
Redding has been making Body Dies for Benchrest Shooters for years, but they were never a catalogued item.
Now, with the introduction of the Bushing-Style Neck Sizing Dies, they are available as a companion item for most cartridges.
Body Dies are designed to full length resize the case body and bump the shoulder position for proper chambering without disturbing the case neck. They are made without internal parts and intended for use only to resize cases which have become increasingly difficult to chamber after repeated firing and neck sizing.

Since Redding developed it, and Redding defined what it does (and explains what it does in their catalogue), your arguments are empty.

Forster introduced the "Bump die" 7 years ago. It was designed to be able to push the shoulder back WITHOUT touching the body. That is why the call them "Bump" dies. It is a very successful product, with thousands and thousands sold - I have never heard one single complaint about the die, about the design, or about "crumpled" case bodies.

If you knew anything about mechanics, you would know that it is a bunch easier to slide a cone of brass across a lubricated surface, then it is to compress a cylinder.

Inside a die, given the choice of a lubed shoulder flowing, or a cylinder collapsing, the shoulder will flow every time. It is in physics books... it is not my opinion at all.


I have four (two 223's, a 22-250, and a 300 WM)... and NONE of them have any contact with the case body... if you remove the bushing, the case will rattle loosely in the die, without the die touching the case walls... your arguments are empty.

Instead of arguing aboot equipmwnt that you never uesd, you should get out and actually do some of this stuff, you would learn something - a lot.

 

[fguffey]

Rockable, in the beginning there were cases with a lot of taper, including the 30/40 Crag, 303 British, 30/30 Winchester and 300 H&H etc... By design the case was held to the rear with a rim or belt. Whatever happened to the case body/shoulder was of little concern. The difference in length between the chamber and case from the shoulder to the bolt face and shoulder to case head assured the case would form to the chamber that does not mean the shoulder moved forward when fired. When the case forms the new shoulder is not the same shoulder the case started with.


Stretch when fired when the case has a rim and or belt: No one measure the thickness of the rim or belt in the chamber, no one measures the thickness of the rim on a case or thickness of the belt on a case: therefore, they do not know how much travel the case body experiences when fired. No manufacturer sells cases with thicker rims and or thicker belts and no reloader has a clue how to off set the difference in thickness of the belt or rim on the case with what is called head space.


I will try to suggest reloaders ‘think about it’, if the case moves forward because of a thin rim the case body moves forward and locks onto the chamber when fired. When the case body moves forward and the case locks onto the chamber the case head moves back to the bolt face; meaning the case has no choice but to stretch between the case body and case head. Some reloaders have experienced case head separation in 3 firings.


The 220 has a large taper, it has a rim that is reduced in diameter and it has a shoulder with a slight taper. The nicest thing that ever happened to a case with a lot of taper is P.O. Ackley with the improved case body/shoulder. Back to ‘there is nothing you can do’ if you chamber a round and then pull the trigger. The case has no choice but to stretch between the case head and case body. With a 220 the first thing I would determine of the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face, after determining the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face I would neck the cases up and then size them to reduce the amount of travel by increasing the length of the case between the shoulder of the case to case head. And then there would be my selection of receivers.


F. Guffey

 

[rockable]

Not a chance of following the above......so
To the OP just to be clear:
The pics you provided are all the new Winchester brass you purchased?
Other brass that you reloaded and shot has NONE of this happening to it?

Yes. And I've reloaded a bunch of them. I agree there is a headspace issue but how do you reduce headspace on new brass if you don't fireform it? Don't tell me to do it hydraulically, I'm not going there.

I checked the headspace with my Hornady headspace gauge and the headspace on the cases are as follows.

• Fired cases - 1.805 - 1.807
• Unfired cases - 1.798 - 1.815 (won't chamber)
• Base is .446 - .447 and I have older Winchester brass that is .442, which sounds right.

I believe that I got some of those low side cases and tthose are the ones that separated. FL sizing the low side ones does not move them up but a thousandth or 2. I stand by my first assessment. I got a crappy batch of brass.

 

[fguffey]

Yes. And I've reloaded a bunch of them. I agree there is a headspace issue but how do you reduce headspace on new brass if you don't fireform it? Don't tell me to do it hydraulically, I'm not going there.

I can not change the head space on a case because my cases do not have head space. I use the length of the case to off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the case head. First I determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and then I measure the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head. The difference in the two measurements is clearance. In the perfect world I like .002” clearance, To accomplish the .002” clearance I use the companion tool to the press; the feeler gage.


If the chamber was on the short side I would jus a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head when determining ‘how short’.


Again, my cases do not have head space.


F. Guffey


And when my cases are too short from the shoulder to the case head I neck the case up and then size it with the correct die adjustment. I have 30/06 chambers that are as long as a field reject length gage from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face by .016”, instead of necking the case up I use cases that are longer from the shoulder to the case head than the 30/06 case. I use 280 Remington cases, the 280 Remington case is .051” longer from the shoulder to the case head than the 30/06; meaning there is no way I can miss, I adjust the die .014” off the shell holder and then size the 280 Remington case to 30/06. And yes, trimming is required.

 

[fguffey]

Yes. And I've reloaded a bunch of them. I agree there is a headspace issue but how do you reduce headspace on new brass if you don't fireform it? Don't tell me to do it hydraulically, I'm not going there

I can not change the head space on a case because my cases do not have head space. I use the length of the case to off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the case head. First I determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and then I measure the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head. The difference in the two measurements is clearance. In the perfect world I like .002” clearance, To accomplish the .002” clearance I use the companion tool to the press; the feeler gage.


If the chamber was on the short side I would use a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head when determining ‘how short’.


Again, my cases do not have head space.


F. Guffey


And when my cases are too short from the shoulder to the case head I neck the case up and then size it with the correct die adjustment. I have 30/06 chambers that are as long as a field reject length gage from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face by .016”, instead of necking the case up I use cases that are longer from the shoulder to the case head than the 30/06 case. I use 280 Remington cases, the 280 Remington case is .051” longer from the shoulder to the case head than the 30/06; meaning there is no way I can miss, I adjust the die .014” off the shell holder and then size the 280 Remington case to 30/06. And yes, trimming is required.


F. Guffey

 

[dedogs]

And when my cases are too short from the shoulder to the case head I neck the case up and then size it with the correct die adjustment.

This makes perfect sense to me! dedogs

 

[rardoin]

I think you should make a Cerrosafe cast of your chamber and measure the headspace. I know you don't feel that it is the chamber but at least have some very objective data to rule it out.

 

[fguffey]

I think you should make a Cerrosafe cast of your chamber and measure the headspace.

With all of the different methods and or techniques of measuring the length of the chamber I suggest someone should try to convince him there are easier ways to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face'

Starting with fired cases that did not separate. I have no problem with measuring the distance from the shoulder to the case head before firing and again after firing. The length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head tells me how long the chamber is and by measuring before and again after I know how much the case stretched.

F. Guffey

 

[rardoin]

With all of the different methods and or techniques of measuring the length of the chamber I suggest someone should try to convince him there are easier ways to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face'

Starting with fired cases that did not separate. I have no problem with measuring the distance from the shoulder to the case head before firing and again after firing. The length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head tells me how long the chamber is and by measuring before and again after I know how much the case stretched.

F. Guffey

It will give you a close idea...but not as exact as a casting measured appropriately. The brass will not undergo a perfect plastic deformation and elasticity will cause some degree of rebound which will have to be considered in your measurement. Is that amount significant in this case where the OP is trying to troubleshoot brass failure, perhaps not...but it should be to you as you have this peculiar habit of arguing over quite trivial and tangential details.

 

[fguffey]

Is that amount significant in this case where the OP is trying to troubleshoot brass failure, perhaps not...but it should be to you as you have this peculiar habit of arguing over quite trivial and tangential details.

As of today I am the only member on this forum that cast a chamber and then use the casting to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. Who is arguing? You suggested he make a cast of the chamber to determine head space. I understand most are confused but I am sure everything will be very clear when you explain how he can cast the chamber to determine head space.

F. Guffey

 

[John Russell]

I think you should make a Cerrosafe cast of your chamber and measure the headspace. I know you don't feel that it is the chamber but at least have some very objective data to rule it out.

You cannot find chamber length/headspace with a Cerosafe chamber cast.

To get headspace, use a minimum SAAMI Go gauge, and build up the gauge head with scotch tape (0.002" per layer), until there is resistance to closing the bolt.

 

[rockable]

Just to close this out, the seller agreed that it was an inferior batch of brass. Turns out he had purchased a bunch from an estate sale and this was a part of it. No telling when it was made. He promptly refunded my money.

Besides the base diameter being out of spec, the base to shoulder dimensions were all over the place. The short ones are the ones that separated, understandably.

I discovered another bag of 100 that I bought from Midway. These all checked out well and should work fine.