FL vs Neck Sizing / Again

[CharlieNC]

I know the trend has swung back to FL sizing vs neck sizing, but there are a couple of points I would like to get a better understanding for regarding how others handle this. First of all this is as applied specifically to my 223 FTR rig. So far I've only competed at 300 yards but when its not in the 10 ring its always my fault.

In the beginning I measured the zero headspace of the chamber, which is 1.462". Initially the brass was 1.460" HS. My reloading routine is to anneal, neck size with Lee collet die, and measure the brass. After several firings the HS is still 1.460". Based on the general recommendations I would FL size by bumping back to 1.458", so theoretically after a few firings I could end up with excessive headspace. Of course I could set the FL die to maintain 1.460" which would only size the neck, or if there was an occasional flier.

At some point the HS will grow and must be FL sized and eventually trimmed. Afterwards I would finish with the Lee collet die to maintain consistent neck dimensions. I also trust that the neck ID will be more consistent with the squeezing onto a mandrel, vs trusting conventional dies to squeeze the neck in consistently. As a comparison I have FL sized using a Forster, with no noticeable difference on the target.

My question is that as long as the brass is not changing HS dimension, what am I missing by only necksizing? And is there something else I am missing?

 

[Shaggy357]

.....what am I missing by only necksizing? And is there something else I am missing?

You will miss the case wear, the cracks, splits, etc. You don't get to go shopping for new brass. You don't get to do that initial neck turning, deburring, primer pocket uniforming, etc. No more extra brass prep for you.....

 

[dcali]

Neck sizing works great until it doesn't. Eventually, you'll get a stuck case or worse, a loaded round in the chamber and the bolt stuck half way closed. There really isn't a downside to FL sizing, especially when shooting the pressures you will want to with a .223 in F T/R.

 

[Sniper338]

Years ago i switch to FL sizing neck bushing dies... both get your neck tension and full length resize... best of both worlds imo...

Before that i neck sized only, never had a problem.

Just different ways to skin a cat.. thats what makes shooting competative.

 

[M-61]

Full agreement with Shaggy357


The less I work the brass the better. The bolt closes with the slightest feel, meaning it does not 'flop' closed but requires no force. What I do works for me in my bolt rifles. I'm not arbitrarily 'bumping' anything either. I know in some competition shooting, the shooter does not want to upset the rifle in the bags and desires NO force to close the bolt at all. (Then I can see a 'bump' being needed). Since I shoot against myself I don't care. Neck sizing works for me and although I know it is easy on brass anyway some of my 222 brass has at least 35-40 reloads on it. ( I stopped counting a while ago.) Also Savage's in 6BR, 6.5BR. and 30BR. Neck sizing works fine. Though none of those have anywhere near the reload count on them as the 222 does, but I feel those cartridges are also 'easy' on brass. I've never has a stuck case in the chamber and my guess is that bolt closure (or attempt to close) should have been an indicator some thing was not right BEFORE that happened.
I also do not understand why a shoulder would need to be 'bumped' after every firing (discounting the above mention competition). Initially yes, if you had new brass that was long and a short chamber.
All of the above is MY experience in MY rifles. Everyone else's experiences could be better or different.

 

[CharlieNC]

Neck sizing works great until it doesn't. Eventually, you'll get a stuck case or worse, a loaded round in the chamber and the bolt stuck half way closed. There really isn't a downside to FL sizing, especially when shooting the pressures you will want to with a .223 in F T/R.

That is why I measure headspace, to avoid getting stuck. As long as the fired brass measures exactly on HS target, how would you set up the FL die? If I shoulder bump brass that is on target, then the HS would be more than desired.

 

[KevinThomas]

Best description I've ever heard came from my mentor, and long time High Power and Long Range competitor, Martin "Jim" Hull. Formerly the Chief Ballistician for Sierra Bullets when I first started with them, and a firing member of many US Palma Teams over the years. According to Jim, "a case should fit a chamber like a rat turd in a violin case." By that he meant, no resistance in chambering, and none in closing the bolt. All of the accuracy test ammo fired in daily QC testing was (and presumably still is) F/L sized for that very reason. Neck sizing is the sirens song, and eventually, will lead you to an ugly death on the rocks. Murphy will help them, too, just to ensure it happens at the worst possible time.

 

[dmoran]

My own reasons why I prefer full sizing every cycle over neck sizing only are:
- to maintain common case dimensions and clearances of the entire case, and for every cycle, so that pressures needed to expand and iron the case to the chamber walls when fired are consistent (ES) to each other from one case to the next and from one cycle to the next cycle.
- to eliminate case contact with the chamber walls, which can effect functionality of the bolt to both closer and extraction. Sort to speak, I want my bolt to close and open exactly the same on every round and case.
- to maintain consistent case capacity, that in return aids to equalization of the powder columns.
My 2-cents,
Donovan

 

[BoydAllen]

Because of your annealing, your brass is staying relatively soft at the shoulders. Combine that with the moderate shoulder angle, and case diameter, and brass thickness at the case shoulder , and you will not feel much resistance to bolt close coming from a tight fit shoulder to head. With moderate pressure loads you can go a long time neck sizing, which is what you seem to be reporting. As long as your bolt operation is satisfactory you are good to go. If you decide that the time has come for you to size the body diameters of your cases (based on the effort it takes to operate your bolt) you can use a body die after neck sizing, and set your shoulder to head dimension where ever you like. Reducing body diameters should put you right back where you were. One other point, IMO, assuming you are doing it in comparison to a case that has reached its maximum head to shoulder dimension, I would not describe a .002 bump as excessive. With larger diameter cases, and/or sharper shoulder angles, without annealing, you will see things get tight at the shoulder a lot sooner. Cases do not all get tight on the same firing, and mixed bolt close efforts open groups. With chambers and dies closely matched, brass is hardly changed by FL sizing, allowing shooters to FL size every time without working the brass much, or having to trim too often, while insuring consistent bolt close that promotes better accuracy. You can shoot small with tight brass, or with loose brass, but when you mix both in the same group, my experience has been that accuracy can suffer.

 

[USMCDOC]

I have always FL sized my brass, but with only 1K bump at he shoulder, has always worked for me..

 

[dcali]

That is why I measure headspace, to avoid getting stuck. As long as the fired brass measures exactly on HS target, how would you set up the FL die? If I shoulder bump brass that is on target, then the HS would be more than desired.

I don't think a thou or two of headspace matters, and some would even argue that it helps. But I can tell you that hammering open the bolt with a live round in the chamber is not something I want to do. Neck sizing, in my opinion, is a solution looking for a problem.

For the guys who are at the top of the board at the super shoot, they *may* have something to quibble about. But that's a very special situation. For F Class, there is no benefit at all to neck sizing. You'll want to be running stout loads for TR. Stretching the brass a thou or two for every firing isn't going to wear your brass out before primer pockets start to go. Getting a round stuck in the chamber might ruin a match, though.

 

[CharlieNC]

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen. It seems my primary risk is as Boyd stated that all brass will not grow at the same rate, and that if I do not measure a high percentage for HS that some can get through and cause problems. This window is noticeably less forgiving on other hotter calibers as the case growth is more rapid. When the brass HS measures exactly on spec, how do you setup your FL die? I worry I will bump a few cases too much while homing in on the proper setup.

 

[Phil3]

My own reasons why I prefer full sizing every cycle over neck sizing only are:
- to maintain common case dimensions and clearances of the entire case, and for every cycle, so that pressures needed to expand and iron the case to the chamber walls when fired are consistent (ES) to each other from one case to the next and from one cycle to the next cycle.
- to eliminate case contact with the chamber walls, which can effect functionality of the bolt to both closer and extraction. Sort to speak, I want my bolt to close and open exactly the same on every round and case.
- to maintain consistent case capacity, that in return aids to equalization of the powder columns.
My 2-cents,
Donovan

I don't want to risk a stuck case, so I prefer the FL sizing. I also don't like the oft-reported formation of a donut at the shoulder/case junction, which seems to be more prevalent with neck bushing dies. I have not done it yet, but plan to have my FL die honed by Forster to give the neck just the right amount of resizing without use of the expander ball. The standard die just mashes the neck down to far before the expander ball opens it back up again. I also prefer FL sizing for consistency as well, although fired cases from the same gun should be fairly consistent. Or maybe I am missing something.

Phil

 

[K22]

I stop neck sizing years ago. Like many I believed it prolong case life and improve accuracy. I have proof positive evidence after shooting thousands of rounds that neither of these assertions are true IF you properly full size. By proper I mean setting the shoulder back approx. .001 to .002" for bolt rifles.

The reason I switched back to full sizing is for more uniform functionality since I'm a varmint and predator hunter and cannot afford to have a stuck case or failure to chamber in the field. Since I switched back to full sizing I have NOT experienced any loss of case life or decline in accuracy.

 

[CharlieNC]

I stop neck sizing years ago. Like many I believed it prolong case life and improve accuracy. I have proof positive evidence after shooting thousands of rounds that neither of these assertions are true IF you properly full size. By proper I mean setting the shoulder back approx. .001 to .002" for bolt rifles.

The reason I switched back to full sizing is for more uniform functionality since I'm a varmint and predator hunter and cannot afford to have a stuck case or failure to chamber in the field. Since I switched back to full sizing I have NOT experienced any loss of case life or decline in accuracy.

K if my unsized brass measures exactly at my HS spec then I should bump the case to get more HS than spec? This is what I don't get. Maybe its not clear that I have established an absolute spec of 1.460in which is known to give .002 clearance?

 

[dcali]

Just take some of your fired brass and measure it. Once it's been fired two or three times, it's generally pretty consistent. But if there is some variation (it shouldn't be much), use one of the longer cases to set your dies to bump it back about .002. That's all you need to do. Don't worry about the spec - you need a relative measurement. I don't even know what my chambers' specs are. I do verify that new, out of the box brass fits easily in the chamber, but then I just load and shoot.

It's worth noting that I don't anneal, and milage may vary.

 

['Freak]

Leave the previous adjustment alone if it’s coming out the die measuring between 1.460” and 1.461” or even 1.4615, telling you there’s your desired two thousandths or, at minimum, still a half thousandth of clearance between the bolt face and the case head with that brass shoved fully forward in the chamber of your rifle.

 

[Shaggy357]

Lots of valid responses to this question. Similar to some of the responses to question of weight vs volume when dropping powder charges. Someone is going to swear one is better than the other and they can prove it with facts. And they are probably 100% correct. As a competent reloader and competitor, you have to weigh the responses and see which response will satisfy what your needs are. When I responded the first time, I was being a smart a$$ and did a 30 second or less response.

After reading all of the current responses, I see that I am one of those guys that is actually fence riding on this subject. I do neither 100% of the time. I have some cartridges that get the FL die every time. 7-30 Waters and 22 Hornet to name two quick ones. Neck sizing is just not reliable in feeding, brass life, and accuracy of these two cartridges. I have several XP-100s and the two I shoot the most, 7TCU (7mmx223) and 6BR, will neck size fine 2-3 times, then I have to bump the shoulder to keep the bolt throw consistent. If I dont, on that 4th firing, every 8-10 rounds I will have a case come up that causes a tight bolt closure and it throws off the consistency in my shot rhythm. The Redding "S" bushing neck die works fine for the 2-3 reloadings, plus it takes out about 2 hours of prep time. I load by the box (100) and do 3-4 boxes at a time so that savings can add up.

Variability in brass properties, numbers of firings, etc also makes a difference in what works best. I don't know why, but for me it seems that RP brass can go a couple of more firings before HAVING to do the annealing. Winchester and Federal you get 2, maybe three shots and it is time to anneal or expect a crack to show up in 1 or 2 out of 100. Harder brass is harder to chamber if it is off a few .001". It also cracks a lot easier.

Some great responses above, and they are right on. Now you just have to see what is best for you. If you would like my true opinion....it depends 100% on you...

Steve

 

[CharlieNC]

After reading all of the current responses, I see that I am one of those guys that is actually fence riding on this subject. I do neither 100% of the time. I have some cartridges that get the FL die every time. 7-30 Waters and 22 Hornet to name two quick ones. Neck sizing is just not reliable in feeding, brass life, and accuracy of these two cartridges. I have several XP-100s and the two I shoot the most, 7TCU (7mmx223) and 6BR, will neck size fine 2-3 times, then I have to bump the shoulder to keep the bolt throw consistent. If I dont, on that 4th firing, every 8-10 rounds I will have a case come up that causes a tight bolt closure and it throws off the consistency in my shot rhythm. The Redding "S" bushing neck die works fine for the 2-3 reloadings, plus it takes out about 2 hours of prep time. I load by the box (100) and do 3-4 boxes at a time so that savings can add up.

This is where I am too Shaggy, neither way 100% but depending on the HS measurement. It sounds like one aspect in which I differ from most is that I HS to a spec which I have determined based on chamber measurement, vs bumping which seems like an arbitrary (and changing) target.

 

[Webster]

This is where I am too Shaggy, neither way 100% but depending on the HS measurement. It sounds like one aspect in which I differ from most is that I HS to a spec which I have determined based on chamber measurement, vs bumping which seems like an arbitrary (and changing) target.

I don't shoot comp but I have a nice 6BR. If I use a standard Redding FL die I can adjust the die to get the correct bump (the bolt closes easily with the firing pin assembly removed. The problem is the die reduces the neck diameter so I get 6 thou neck tension and it works the neck excessively. The tension is not adjustable. The bullet is acting like an expander mandrel. Short range BR comp people that I have watched reload have custom FL dies made based on sending someone a few fired cases or made with the same reamer as the barrel and you can tell the die maker the neck thickness you use and the tension you want. I have been using a bushing die. The impression I get from reading articles is that a FL die gets the neck center line in better alignment with the case center line?