First time loading 300 WM - Questions

[fguffey]

I am confused - what is the area "in front of the web" and what should that dimension be?

I would think the are you are referring to is the area in front of the belt. You said you were getting measurements of .512 +/-. Cases I have found that were giving problems measured .518"+. I did not have access to the rifles but the 40 cases were in sets of 20.

It is not something that happens suddenly and all at once without warning. Reloaders claim they can start over by full length sizing, I find it most difficult to start over with a case that has been fired 5 times.

F. Guffey

 

[MMH]

("This brass will chamber in my rifle w/o sizing (although there is some force required to close the bolt handle.)"

If you can close the bolt with force, then do not use a body die - neck size it and shoot it and the case will form to YOUR chamber.

So I loaded up 20 rounds. The rounds were extremely hard to close the bolt on. It seems as if not sizing the body/shoulder & running them thru a collet sizer made them chamber allot harder. The difficulty was not in closing the bolt, it was in pushing the bolt forward so that I could close the bolt. I had to stand up behind the rifle so that I could generate enough force to close the bolt. Unfortunately I have another 40 rounds loaded where I know that the bolt will be difficult to close.

I still have an additional 180 pieces of once fired brass that I will want to size a little bit. Should I run them through the Redding body die? Should I do this before or after the Lee collet die? How do I adjust the body die - I do not want to size the brass any more than I have to.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

So I loaded up 20 rounds. The rounds were extremely hard to close the bolt on. It seems as if not sizing the body/shoulder & running them thru a collet sizer made them chamber allot harder. The difficulty was not in closing the bolt, it was in pushing the bolt forward so that I could close the bolt. I had to stand up behind the rifle so that I could generate enough force to close the bolt. Unfortunately I have another 40 rounds loaded where I know that the bolt will be difficult to close.

I still have an additional 180 pieces of once fired brass that I will want to size a little bit. Should I run them through the Redding body die? Should I do this before or after the Lee collet die? How do I adjust the body die - I do not want to size the brass any more than I have to.

I do not have FL or body dies for most of my calibres. I neck size my cases 99% of the time. When I size the body or shoulder, I size cases the absolute LEAST amount possible, consistent with the level of functioning that I need.

Occasionally, I will get cases given to me by a friend, or if it is a rare or hard to find calibre, I might buy fired brass on line.

If they don't chamber and are worth the investment of a FL or body die, I will buy a used FL or Body die on eBay or GunBroker.

Here is an example. I shoot a fine .220 Swift rifle, and use Norma cases - they are ~$1.00 each when you can find them, and they are always "back ordered" when I need them. They are made of unobtainium.

A while back, I was given a whole bunch of Norma .220 Swift cases that some fool tried to convert to .220 Wilson Arrow. He used way too much lube and badly buckled the shoulders with hydraulic oil dents. If you Google, "220 Wilson arrow case measurements", you will see my cases

They were a real mess...

Aside from the dents, the shoulders had expanded when pushed into the original .220 Wilson forming die, so the cases would not go into the chamber of a .220 Swift, and the shoulder had been set back to the Wilson case length - which meant they they had ~70 thou (almost a 10th of an inch) of excess headspace.

From a case "salvaging" point of view, it could not get much worse - but I needed the cases for my .220 Swift.
So, I bought a used RCBS FL die on eBay for ~$12.

So, to start (and this applies to your 300 Win Mag).

To adjust the die, run a LUBED case up in the press without the die. Then screw your body or FL die down onto the case, until it stops firmly on the case.

Then lower the case, and turn the die in a tiny amount more. Then size the case.
Wipe the lube off and chamber the case.

If it is too tight, repeat the above with turning the die down a tiny bit.
Keep doing this until you can close the bolt with some force.

When you fire the cases, put a light oil on the case (I use G-96), this will force them to fill the chamber without added loose headspace, and/or stretching the case.

I blew out ALL of the screwed up .220 Wilson Arrow cases, and didn't lose a single one. They are now perfect .220 Swift cases, and none stretched.

It is easy.

 

[MMH]

I do not have FL or body dies for most of my calibres. I neck size my cases 99% of the time. When I size the body or shoulder, I size cases the absolute LEAST amount possible, consistent with the level of functioning that I need.

Occasionally, I will get cases given to me by a friend, or if it is a rare or hard to find calibre, I might buy fired brass on line.

If they don't chamber and are worth the investment of a FL or body die, I will buy a used FL or Body die on eBay or GunBroker.

Here is an example. I shoot a fine .220 Swift rifle, and use Norma cases - they are ~$1.00 each when you can find them, and they are always "back ordered" when I need them. They are made of unobtainium.

A while back, I was given a whole bunch of Norma .220 Swift cases that some fool tried to convert to .220 Wilson Arrow. He used way too much lube and badly buckled the shoulders with hydraulic oil dents. If you Google, "220 Wilson arrow case measurements", you will see my cases

They were a real mess...

Aside from the dents, the shoulders had expanded when pushed into the original .220 Wilson forming die, so the cases would not go into the chamber of a .220 Swift, and the shoulder had been set back to the Wilson case length - which meant they they had ~70 thou (almost a 10th of an inch) of excess headspace.

From a case "salvaging" point of view, it could not get much worse - but I needed the cases for my .220 Swift.
So, I bought a used RCBS FL die on eBay for ~$12.

So, to start (and this applies to your 300 Win Mag).

To adjust the die, run a LUBED case up in the press without the die. Then screw your body or FL die down onto the case, until it stops firmly on the case.

Then lower the case, and turn the die in a tiny amount more. Then size the case.
Wipe the lube off and chamber the case.

If it is too tight, repeat the above with turning the die down a tiny bit.
Keep doing this until you can close the bolt with some force.

When you fire the cases, this will force them to fill the chamber without added loose headspace, and/or stretching the case.

I blew out ALL of the screwed up .220 Wilson Arrow cases, and didn't lose a single one. They are now perfect .220 Swift cases, and none stretched.

It is easy.

Thank You. I will try your procedure.

 

[ebb]

I don't know if this is your first time reloading or if you reload a lot and this is the first time for 300 win mag? I learned a lesson on the first case I sized that my help you . Lubing the cases is a must!!! You just cant get by with out lube. I didn't notice lube in the list of procedures you started this post with.

 

[MMH]

I don't know if this is your first time reloading or if you reload a lot and this is the first time for 300 win mag? I learned a lesson on the first case I sized that my help you . Lubing the cases is a must!!! You just cant get by with out lube. I didn't notice lube in the list of procedures you started this post with.

I have been reloading 308 for a while. This is my first time loading a 300WM (or any belted magnum for that matter). When I FL size I always lube my cases & I alway FL size my 308's to bump the shoulder back. I barely push the shoulder (probably only 0.001 to 0.002) as I do not want to work the brass. Doing this, I am getting 10 plus reloads out of my cases.

With a belted magnum I was warned about the bulge in front of the belt & how FL sizing will not take care of the bulge. Furthermore, most seemed to suggest that a if I could close my bolt on a case then do not use the FL die & just use a collet die (where no lube is required). I did this & can close the bolt, but it takes ALLOT of force to do this.

Again, just learning the nuances of loading a belted magnum.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

I have been reloading 308 for a while. This is my first time loading a 300WM (or any belted magnum for that matter). When I FL size I always lube my cases & I alway FL size my 308's to bump the shoulder back. I barely push the shoulder (probably only 0.001 to 0.002) as I do not want to work the brass. Doing this, I am getting 10 plus reloads out of my cases.

With a belted magnum I was warned about the bulge in front of the belt & how FL sizing will not take care of the bulge. Furthermore, most seemed to suggest that a if I could close my bolt on a case then do not use the FL die & just use a collet die (where no lube is required). I did this & can close the bolt, but it takes ALLOT of force to do this.

Again, just learning the nuances of loading a belted magnum.

"With a belted magnum I was warned about the bulge in front of the belt & how FL sizing will not take care of the bulge."

I load for three belted cases (264 WM, 300WM and 375 H&H). The bulge is no different than the bulge that can form in front of the web of any case, and many people have problems with that bulge too - it is not a problem.

If you have a problem with it, get a small base sizing die, and set it up so it does not move the shoulder more than you want... just like setting up any FL die.

 

[MMH]

When you fire the cases, put a light oil on the case (I use G-96), this will force them to fill the chamber without added loose headspace, and/or stretching the case.

How/why does does oil force the cases to fill the chamber?

Also, I have a Redding body die - Category I which I do not believe is a small base die. I will try this before getting a small base die. I pressume that the case should be run thru the body die after the Lee collet die & not before - is this correct?

 

[Nvreloader]

One other item with the 300 WM,

Make sure you don't use MIXED brand names of brass,
when reloading it, as there is over 5 different internal case capacity for this brass.

IMHO,
I would H2o check the brass internal capacity's and keep them in their own sort containers.

Tia,
Don

 

[XBBR Shooter]

How/why does does oil force the cases to fill the chamber?

Also, I have a Redding body die - Category I which I do not believe is a small base die. I will try this before getting a small base die. I presume that the case should be run thru the body die after the Lee collet die & not before - is this correct?

The normal cycle of a case is, the case is forced as far forward as possible by the firing primer. When the chamber walls and the case walls are dry, then the case walls stick to the chamber. Since it is all the way forward, whatever space there was, is now in the rear, and chamber pressure forces the case to stretch... the head is forced back until it hits the bolt face, and you now have the beginning is a weak place just in front of the web.

The first firing of the case is normally the worst, because that is when the most stretching occurs, if you are careful about sizing or bumping.

But if there is a coat of light oil on the case body, when the case is fired and shoved forward, the case walls cannot get a grip on the chamber, so the whole case slides back, and does not start to stretch... and from that point on. management of the case life is easy peasy.

As far as when to use the collet die - it makes no difference.

 

[Deton8tor]

Sent a PM regarding your .300. Didn't want to write too much here.

 

[Tuxedo007]

Probably less than your original, erroneous post. At least one belted cartridge, from the same manufacturer, does not headspace on its (nonexistent) shoulder.

Sounds like you need to find something to do! Obviously, you have far to much time on your hands since you are just waiting for someone to mis-state something so you can jump on it & show what you allegedly know! You are also about to show something IMHO none of us wants to see!

 

[Tuxedo007]

I've measured a bunch of my cases and they are at 0.512" - 0.513" just in front of the belt. After firing, how much can they expand before indicating excessive pressure?

I think you're overthinking everything! With a few obvious exceptions, you have been given good advice by some of the participants. As one said, stop worrying & enjoy your 300 Win Mag! I would also hasten to add that the purchase of Sierra, Speer, Hornady loading manuals would be recommended. Nosler puts their data on line. Just go to the Nosler Website. Hodgdon also puts their data on line.

 

[Tuxedo007]

I purchased a Winchester Model 70 with a 300 Win Magnum chamber. After firing I did not have a die that would fit the case; I have small base 300 Win Magnum dies, forming dies and full length sizing die with neck sizers. I called Winchester, Winchester sent me ‘to their Warranty man’. I explained to him their chamber was the ugliest I have ever seen; it was too long from the shoulder to the bolt face and too large in diameter. Long story, he reamed, polished and honed, when finished the chamber was uglier. I was thinking I needed to get out of that place with my rifle when he informed me he sent the rifle back to Winchester. And then it did not get better.


I have no ideal what went wrong; I believe Winchester did. When I purchase a new rifle I should get a new rifle. I have no infatuation with head space gages but if I did I would have taken the cases that would not fit the shell holder and cut them off.200” in front of the belt. Cutting the case off ahead to the bulge would eliminate the case body and shoulder as being the cause of difficult to size.


In the beginning what ever happened in front of the belt when the case was fired was not considered important. By design the case body was designed to fill the chamber, if the belt held the case to the rear the shoulder had nothing to do. And if the belt worked the shoulder did not move but that is something reloaders can wrap their minds around.


F. Guffey

What is your point?!

 

[Tuxedo007]

Again: I was asked to form belted cases for a wildcat chamber. The builder of the rifles would have formed them himself if it was easy; so he called me and I had to determine if it was possible. After that I boxed up my dies and went for a visit, the last thing he requested was 'the other #4 shell holder'. I did not have to sort through 440 belted cases to determine which cases would fit my #4 shell holder because he had already done that. After forming the 400 belted cases we started on the 40 'that required a special shell holder'. I used a small case friendly hammer to drive the cases into my shell holder and that got his attention. I suggested if the case will not fit the shell holder determine why; I knew these cases had been hammered with heavy loads. I suggested we measure the diameter of the case head at the bottom of the extractor groove. the case head had expanded .011". There was no reason for me to measure the diameter of the case in front of the belt because I knew it got hammered when the case head got hammered. We measured; the case in front of the belt had expanded .008". He wanted to know how to fix the hammered cases; I suggested he use one of his lathes with a collet if he was that desperate. He decided against it. He could have cut the extractor groove or modified a shell holder or find himself a case friendly hammer. Problem: The cases he was forming were to be used with the rifles he was building.



Why would you do that? What are you looking for? Accuracy or trying to determine what happens when a case head gets hammered?

Measure before and again after before firing and again after. I know it is acceptable to look for signs of high pressure, I have a flash hole diameter gage, if the diameter of the flash hole increases the diameter of the case head increases and the primer pocket gets loose and the case no longer fit my shell holders. I have a set of shell holders that are unforgiving, if a case fits the shell holder and fails to fit after firing the case head got hammered. Some shell holders fit better than others, there is more utility in a shell holder that only fits where it touches.



Measure before and again after firing.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

The normal cycle of a case is, the case is forced as far forward as possible by the firing primer. When the chamber walls and the case walls are dry, then the case walls stick to the chamber. Since it is all the way forward, whatever space there was, is now in the rear, and chamber pressure forces the case to stretch... the head is forced back until it hits the bolt face, and you now have the beginning is a weak place just in front of the web.

I know, it is complicated, for some it is too complicated. If the case has a belt the belt prevents the case from taking off for the front of the chamber and then there is that part some reloaders believe the case takes off when the firing pin strikes the primer. There are exceptions; take my firing pins, my firing pins are killer firing pins, they crush the primer before the case, bullet and powder know their little buddy (the primer) has been crushed. Can anyone imagine how slow thing would be moving if everything had to wait until the case shoulder contacted the chamber shoulder. Again, it takes skill to get the belt and shoulder to make contact at the same time.

And then there were those 440 cases I was asked to form to wildcat chambers. 40 of them had been hammered with heavy loads, the cases were expanded in front of the belt and would not fit the shell holder. Again, it must be complicated for some.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

With a belted magnum I was warned about the bulge in front of the belt & how FL sizing will not take care of the bulge. Furthermore, most seemed to suggest that a if I could close my bolt on a case then do not use the FL die & just use a collet die (where no lube is required). I did this & can close the bolt, but it takes ALLOT of force to do this.

Again, just learning the nuances of loading a belted magnum.

You were warned? Did anyone suggest you measure the diameter of the case ahead of the belt. I have collets for 2 different lathes, if I have a case that needs the diameter reduce it has never been a problem but cases that expand in front of the belt is not normal but I have a JIC remedy, I have collets for my lathes 'just in case' something happens that is an anomaly, an anomaly is something that does not normally happen.

F. Guffey

 

[MagnumManiac]

So when you say measure, I presume that you mean measure right above the belt. How much expansion is acceptable.

The place that you measure for case expansion is on the front of the belt at different points around it's circumference, average them, using a blade micrometer. This is a specialised tool most do not have.
To be honest, what you need is an RCBS Precision Mic to measure your shoulder position before, after firing and when sizing.

The other thing to note, as a Rem chamber supports the case head rather well, there will be no need for a Larry Willis collet die. It is a gimmick for all intents and purposes.

As F. Guffey says, reloading isn't as complicated as many make it.

Cheers.