RCBS A-4 Big Max on one hand and RCBS Summit on the other...

[Matt in Virginia]

Gentlemen,
I have a couple disparate questions for you. The only similarity being they are green...

1. I am in need of a compact press that does not eat up a great deal of real estate. Is there ANY REDEEMING VIRTUE to THE RCBS SUMMIT? I've looked and not read all that much that was positive. Granted not that much has been negative, however, it is heavier than a Rock Chucker and will not perform the work with equal force as the Rock Chucker nor will it produce ammunition as straight as the Co-Ax. This was produced in a recent British Article that Mr. Laurie Holland wrote. Quite well I thought... The giant ram to die carrier does not appear to be mated closely enough to really take advantage of the though process behind the machine. Please do tell me I am wrong... Looking to learn and it is the perfect physical size...

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=1750

2. The RCBS Bix Max or A4 has always been on my bucket list. I can remember lusting after one in the Sears Wish Book when I was all of nine. I had planned to convert the bottom of my, non walk in, closet into a reloading bench. That did not fly with the parental unit. However, it showed at least I had my mind in the right spot...LOL

General thoughts on using the A4? I ask because I know a few who use them, however, I see an awful lot of them become available for sale. I know part of that is they bring good money, however, the presses have never seen any use in general. If there is wear it wear from rough handling or weather exposure(just my take) As opposed to old, similar era Rock Chuckers, that are largely worn out...

Question: I know the presses top ram arrangement largely make them useless lest the original adaptor for standard cartridge holders is included or can be be otherwise sourced. I think I can make one give the plans I have, my mill, and access to a friends lathe. Are there any other issues with the Big Max?

I know it is a beast of a press with a long stroke through.

Any input on either question would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much...

Best Regards, Matt.

 

[M-61]

I have both. The A4 with the original 'shovel' handle came with the case holder that held nearly anything except 45-70. An adapter was available for that case size. After an unknown number of years RCBS changed the A4 ram to the 'standard type' that most presses have. Maybe 20+ years after I bought mine I needed a part for that 'adjustable' case holder. They told me that was discontinued and so was the A4. However they sent me a new style ram for the A4 for no charge. So there is a ram for the A4 that is what I would call like most others. (That original old type even came with a tool to swap them). If you buy one with old type I don't think it's a huge draw back as I really never had a problem with it. However this was in the 70's when I de-primed with the press and you did have to keep those spring loaded jaws somewhat clean.....I haven't use a press or dies for de-priming in decades.
The A4 is a great press that has worked flawlessly and I would say it is nearly indestructible. ( some people can break an anvil!). It produces ammo that meets any standards that I have easily. Bottom line with the A4 (providing anything is still available).......you have the RCBS customer support that I have not found anyone to top yet. It is a robust press. (drop the ram on your foot and you are going to a doctor probably). ZERO complaints in I guess is 40 years. (can't be!)
The Summit (actually two of them) is also solid as can be. However does not have the mechanical advantage of the A4 so you will not be forming cases with less than a lot of effort. However it occupies less real estate (could be used in the CENTER of a bench!) (As a side note I have one that I only seat bullets with using the optional short handle.....I have the very best 'feel' of anything I have used with this press for seating bullets.)
There is indeed a lot written on this press on this site. I would, in my inquiries, be sure the person responding actually owns or has used one. Do a search and there is plenty right here. The press has many adjustments, a zerk fitting for lube, and nothing going below the surface of a bench. Could be mounted directly ABOVE a drawer and neither interferes with the other. Remember that the lack of I guess what might be called a double action mechanical action means YOU apply more power than a two stage press. (full length resizing 378 Weatherby's is not going to make you fond of this press). However I'm not, ('normal' cases-up to 308) so the press works just fine for me.
ALL of the above is MY opinion and strictly from MY own experiences. Have I tested (or used) every press ever made? Not hardly, so this addresses your question regarding these two presses.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

M61,
THAT was GREATLY appreciated and on point. A prime example of why I value this board so highly... Much obliged.

Regards, Matt.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

A4s can be found on eBay fairly often There are two on eBay now), and the quality ranges from "My dad had this on the floor, in the back of the garage", to Just out of the box.
The A4 was one of the least popular of the big frame RCBS efforts... the Summit may take that title.

In my area, back a few years ago, when there was a crazy crush on handloading stuff - how crazy - I had a used set of RCBS standard 223 dies (FL and seater) that were 20 years old, I put them on eBay and got $135 for them - in the midst of this craziness, the local gun store had 19 Summit presses collecting dust.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

A4s can be found on eBay fairly often There are two on eBay now), and the quality ranges from "My dad had this on the floor, in the back of the garage", to Just out of the box.
The A4 was one of the least popular of the big frame RCBS efforts... the Supreme may take that title.

In my area, back a few years ago, when there was a crazy crush on handloading stuff - how crazy - I had a used set of RCBS standard 223 dies (FL and seater) that were 20 years old, I put them on eBay and got $135 for them - in the midst of this craziness, the local gun store had 19 Supreme presses collecting dust.

XBBR,
The Rock Chucker Supreme? As in current production? I have not heard of any great tolerance and I was told the casting and forgings were done in China with final assembly done here. If I am out to lunch here let me know. I like the big Rock Chucker just never considered it a very tight press...

Regards, Matt.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

XBBR,
The Rock Chucker Supreme? As in current production? I have not heard of any great tolerance and I was told the casting and forgings were done in China with final assembly done here. If I am out to lunch here let me know. I like the big Rock Chucker just never considered it a very tight press...

Regards, Matt.

Sorry Mathew, not the RockChucker "Supreme" (though I am not fond of that one) - my baddness (which I corrected) - the big, open, "C" frame, upside-down Summit.

I have never understood the concern about tolerances in "O" frame presses.
Everybody (almost) just loves the Bonanza, and you cannot get more sloppy with tolerances - the dies just lie there, flopping loose in an opening - but everyone worries about a 0.001 play in the ram... go figure???

I have 12 loading presses - one of them is a RockChucker (II), and it is a very fine, and tight press. Bought it, like new, on eBay for $80.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

XBBR,
Sloppy Co-Ax fan here... Results speak for themselves. Bought mine in 2000 before they became THE thing to buy. Paid less than $180 shipped with the extra LS jaws that I never use. Have an OLD Rock Chucker that was dropped by accident and bent/bowed the ram. Returned it to RCBS knowing they were going to send a Supreme which would make for a decent Christmas Gift as they don't blow up my skirt. Turned out they put a new ram, some type of bearing material, and wrote they "lapped into 100% contact". I used that press when I was going to the School of Trades clamped to my counter. Must find it. Tomorrow will be a good day and I'm 95% certain were it is...

The Summit is that bad... Wow. Well I'm going to bite the bullet and fill the paperwork out on the Prazipress. It seems to be a step ahead of anything they have made and I have a soft spot for that color green reloading equipment.(their many shades actually)

Appreciate the input greatly...

Regards, Matt.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

XBBR,
Sloppy Co-Ax fan here... Results speak for themselves. Bought mine in 2000 before they became THE thing to buy. Paid less than $180 shipped with the extra LS jaws that I never use. Have an OLD Rock Chucker that was dropped by accident and bent/bowed the ram. Returned it to RCBS knowing they were going to send a Supreme which would make for a decent Christmas Gift as they don't blow up my skirt. Turned out they put a new ram, some type of bearing material, and wrote they "lapped into 100% contact". I used that press when I was going to the School of Trades clamped to my counter. Must find it. Tomorrow will be a good day and I'm 95% certain were it is...

The Summit is that bad... Wow. Well I'm going to bite the bullet and fill the paperwork out on the Prazipress. It seems to be a step ahead of anything they have made and I have a soft spot for that color green reloading equipment.(their many shades actually)

Appreciate the input greatly...

Regards, Matt.

Bent the ram??? Did you drop it off a building ???

My main work-a-day press is a CH Champion, and at 29 pounds it is a beast.

I would not have a second thought about the Prazipress - after all, it is German, (and beautiful)... I am jealous

 

[dcali]

A press is a press. My newish rock chucker is as square as I can measure and produces ammo that is damn near perfectly concentric. What more can you ask? It's not worth worrying about and certainly not worth spending a lot of money on. I've loaded plenty of match grade ammo on the lowly RCBS partner- which is great for small spaces.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Respectfully,
Whatever gets it done for you. I was talking, more like listening, to Boyd Allen(AKA Mr. Allen for me)and he said a friend of his was a bullet maker and told him the two presses that were straight enough to "draw", hope I got that right, bullets jackets with... I knew by the way he was talking one had to be a Lee. It was... The Cast Classic is as straight as anything on the market and more than most. The second being the larger Redding O type press which I believe would be the Big Boss. I thought it an interesting fwiw...

Regards, Matt.

Btw, if a Press is a Press, is a Die a Die, a Barrel a Barrel, a Chamber a Chamber, etc and so on...?

 

[dcali]

Either the press is straight or it's not. Simple as that. And the cheap ones are pretty damn straight. I literally cannot measure (with my admittedly primitive tools - calipers) anything out of line on my rock chucker. It's perfect to the best of my ability to measure. It also produces ammo with damn near zero runout. You can pay more for a "better" press than that if you like, in my opinion it's akin to spending money on a rifle's paint job.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Either the press is straight or it's not. Simple as that. And the cheap ones are pretty damn straight. I literally cannot measure (with my admittedly primitive tools - calipers) anything out of line on my rock chucker. It's perfect to the best of my ability to measure. It also produces ammo with damn near zero runout. You can pay more for a "better" press than that if you like, in my opinion it's akin to spending money on a rifle's paint job.

Anyone who pays for a "better" press than you did is foolish? A fool and his money will soon part?

I'm going to buy the German Prazipress that I think is a real deal at $711 where the Euro is trading. I've actually been thinking of buying two... If I can't make that much in an hour when I am billing I'm simply not trying hard enough... The money will not be a hardship. I expect the press is going be a joy to use for years to come... If something makes you get a big smile every time you use it, it is generally money well spent. Take care.

Respectfully, Matt.

 

[LHSmith]

A press is a press. My newish rock chucker is as square as I can measure and produces ammo that is damn near perfectly concentric. What more can you ask? It's not worth worrying about and certainly not worth spending a lot of money on. I've loaded plenty of match grade ammo on the lowly RCBS partner- which is great for small spaces.

Ditto.....it's the dies that produce accurate rounds-NOT the press.....A few in SRBR use a Partner press with the ram turned down to smaller diameter to create slop. You can replace the S/H retaining ring with an O-ring to allow the case to self center in the die without bias due to any perceived mis-alignment. You can also float the die to press by using an o-ring under the lock nut AND even float the decap rod using an o-ring. The size of cartridges and reloading volume (number of rounds) should be the main concern when choosing a reloading press.
The making of bullets and the reloading of cartridges are a world apart.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

Anyone who pays for a "better" press than you did is foolish? A fool and his money will soon part?

I'm going to buy the German Prazipress that I think is a real deal at $711 where the Euro is trading. I've actually been thinking of buying two... If I can't make that much in an hour when I am billing I'm simply not trying hard enough... The money will not be a hardship. I expect the press is going be a joy to use for years to come... If something makes you get a big smile every time you use it, it is generally money well spent. Take care.

Respectfully, Matt.

What you said... I HATE cheap tools, even if they work.

 

[dcali]

Let me qualify that. If you like nice stuff just because it's nice, great. I've been known to do that myself from time to time with tools. But I still maintain that a cheap, cast, straight press and a good set of dies cannot be materially improved upon. The prazipress is beautiful. But a large part of why it's expensive is because of how it's designed - as an assembly as opposed to a single casting. In fact, to my eyes, that's a defect, not a feature. The simpler designs from Redding/RCBS/Hornady/Lee/Lyman/whoever are mechanically superior even if the fit and finish it lesser.

 

[dcali]

Ditto.....it's the dies that produce accurate rounds-NOT the press.....A few in SRBR use a Partner press with the ram turned down to smaller diameter to create slop. You can replace the S/H retaining ring with an O-ring to allow the case to self center in the die without bias due to any perceived mis-alignment. You can also float the die to press by using an o-ring under the lock nut AND even float the decap rod using an o-ring. The size of cartridges and reloading volume (number of rounds) should be the main concern when choosing a reloading press.
The making of bullets and the reloading of cartridges are a world apart.

Absolutely. The thing is, with my presses (maybe I'm just lucky), there is't even any improvement to be had by floating the dies. The presses are square. Runout is as perfect as it can be given the components.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

I've had my A4 since about 1978 or 79, iirc.
Hunt Africa? Load your 450 or 470 NE 3 1/4" cases easily. 500 NE or even the 577 or 600. Easy. I have a wildcat 550 Gibbs, 3.13" case. Easy.
Find me a couple more at a reasonable price, I'll take two.

IMHO, it is the best press reasonable money can buy. I'd love to have one of the PraziPresses Matt is wading thru two countries worth of red tape.

Rich

 

[TonyR]

I have an A-4 that is great for expanding necks and doing big mods to cases. RCBS seems to have some parts available. I needed a pivot pin for mine and they had it in stock and shipped it free. The only drawback for me is the threaded reducing bushing that holds the standard size dies. It is not the same size as my other presses so I can't use my Warner FL sizing die on the A-4. Not an issue since it is not my only press but be aware if you have a Warner die.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Rich,
Actually Matt is probably not... I noted a binding of the platten from what appeared to be some form of racking due to a lack of stiffness in the press design. When the platten was forced down it made a shuddering sound that was anything but confidence inspiring. As a courtesy, Danny who has been a great help from the beginning, also reviewed the footage closely and actually picked on the same shudder/binding at the top of the stroke(he is a Hydraulic Specialist by day and hence not completely out of his element with this type of thing). While the mounting of the press was anything BUT solid it is also a fact that this would not have been a problem for virtually any American Press on the market. From my 40 year old plus Rockchucker to a new Redding Big Boss, to say nothing of an Ultramag or the like. It would be difficult to think of a decent press made on this side of the pond that would exhibit the same issues... I am, for the moment, out of the market for that press. I have also had a friend who is a practicing mechanical engineer look at the footage combined with pictures showing the press construction details and he has confirmed how easily it could develop a problem... Frankly THAT press appears to have already developed a problem. Magnificent manufacturing, attention to detail, and what appears to be questionable engineering from those in the know... I wish them the best. Too much of question for me at this point.

I was actually all set to buy a like new A-4, however, it went for $381.86 shipped plus required another $75 for the ram conversion to use standard shell holders that would be several months out. I was hoping of getting something running in the short term... The Corbin CSP-1 with a roller handle looks more and more like a screaming value in comparison. That or something from Redding to keep it basic and off the shelf...

If I find an A-4 at a reasonable price the first couple will be mine. The next will have your name on it... Full job shop restoration starting with a disassemble and trip through the ultrasonic cleaner. Will take a look a close look at things, Maybe apply a coat of RCBS Enamel, and reassemble properly lubricated. Have been thinking about drilling/tapping a hole in the casting(not ideal but easily doable with the quality of the castings and my mill) and adding a grease zerk to the ram akin to the new RCBS Prochucker 5 & 7 Presses.

Regards, Matt.

Btw, The like new A-4 SEEMS expensive until you realize it was in the box and cost less than my Accuracy One Concentricity Gauge with the Test Indicator. Seems to be more than fair with that in mind. Not that I have ever seen the equal of the Accuracy One... fwiw & imho.

 

[rifleman700]

I've been using the Summit for over two years without a problem - it is permanently bench mounted. The only thing it will not do is work with RCBS primer pocket swager dies. Before that I used a CH "H" press for 30+ years. As far as a portable presses I use the Harrel Compact and it works well for this.

http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/products/compact-reloading-press