Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying jamming bullets into lands does not render superfluous any positive effects on accuracy neck turning might have.
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Is neck turning worth the effort?
- Thread starter JasonT
- Start date
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying jamming bullets into lands does not render superfluous any positive effects on accuracy neck turning might have.
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I have never had the gold Box stuff, But the people I know that have it that don't turn also shoot a (roughly ) ,272 chamber.
In fact..come to think of it.. I think that the .272 chamber and the GOLD box Lapua were the "perfect" match for a no turn neck. I think that some of the big name Dasher guys went a touch tighter on their new reamers for the "BLUE" box stuff. I don't know why, but .2705 rings a bell for the blue box. I could be wrong there, but i do know that you can shoot any Lapua 6mm BR brass in a .272 chamber
As far as the op, I gotta think that a tight neck chamber and turned brass has to be at least a little more accurate than a no turn. There has to be a reason that pretty much ALL of the SR BR guys do it, and a BUNCH of the LR guys do it. My thought is that it may seem like to much work. You may not see the improved accuracy gain in one or two groups, so why bother. But, there will be an improvement...however small....over the long haul. Also, maybe brass quality is getting better and turning may not be AS critical as it was, so again...why bother.
Also, my tight neck (.330 and .334) 300 WBY tubes ALL shoot small and do it regularily!!! I won a pile of wood in the LR game with them.
This is my OPINION...with no data to back it up.....take it for what it is worth.
Tod
HTSmith
Silver $$ Contributor
Got it. I'm still learning. My 6BR with a .272 neck with out of the box Lapua blue box brass is shooting so well that it scares me sometimes. Then again I'm not trying to shoot x's at 1000 yards.
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Since the outside of the neck proper is not touching the chamber, then it cannot be the neck which is tight in the chamber and guiding the case. Therefore what remain are the body and shoulder cone.
You'll have to ask them. But I can guess at a few of the answers you'll receive:
"A neck with minimal safe clearance in the chamber neck minimizes work hardening of the case neck across firing / resizing cycles."
"A neck with absolute minimal safe clearance in the chamber neck will spring back enough to eliminate the need to resize the neck for subsequent bullet seating."
" A turned neck, with consistent neck wall thickness, provides consistent bullet grip pressure, which minimizes bullet upset during neck expansion when the load is fired."
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dcali
Bullet Maker
If one in 100 cases has a case neck thickness a thou bigger on one side than the other (and they do, I've measured - even Lapua and Norma), what's that one case going to do to your agg? that's a significant difference in stiffness from one side of the neck to the other, which is going to impact how the bullet get released. It's easier to turn necks than to test this, so I turn necks. But only for rifles that are capable of a legitimate 1/2 MOA agg or better - basically benchrest and maybe F class. Otherwise, it's probably simpler to get a no turn chamber (max brass + .004" or so) and not worry about it.
Yes, you could cull the odd bad cases. But it's easier to turn 100 cases than measure 100 cases at several places on the neck to figure out which ones are bad.
Yes, you could cull the odd bad cases. But it's easier to turn 100 cases than measure 100 cases at several places on the neck to figure out which ones are bad.
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
When it comes to neck turning, I am not excessive compulsive, just extremely well focused. I will do it in a skinny minute.
Anybody got a nice used K& M neck turner for sale?
R.Morehouse
Gold $$ Contributor
When I turn my necks on the 6.5-06 Baer then fire form the round then size the brass only sizing 2/3 of the neck I am of the thought that the 1/3 of the neck that is not sized is going a long way to center the bullet to the bore on my newly loaded round. Seems like an easy method that works O.K. for me.........
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
I was once a member of the short-range BR crowd and every single 6PPC case had to be turned in two stages before fire-forming. What a GIGANTIC PITA!!! Later in my SRBR period of life there were a few who decided it wasn't necessary to get down to the .262 neck and they were doing, IIRC, .268 necks. Damn stuff shot just as well as anyone else's.
My first 6 Dasher was a .267 neck; again GIGANTIC PITA! Now all my 6 PPC BR guns are gone and my long range BR guns are 6 Dasher. One has a .272 and the other a .271. My rule now is I turn both blue & gold box brass but only about .001".
Now, for standard/SAAMI type chambers, I do not turn. There is already enough room in the chamber neck to turn a Kenworth around and turning necks, IMHO, just makes things worse. I have begun using (Shriek!) the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die (as available) to size neck after body sizing to set shoulder bump. the neck is pressed onto a mandrel and the mandrel makes the inside of the neck nice and round by pushing that thick part to the outside. It isn't going to hurt anything there. Guess what; neck tension is now more uniform and ES/SD numbers are falling at the chronograph. That can't hurt accuracy.
Now, bullet pointing; that is something I just started doing and I am sold on the results so far. BUT, that is at ranges of 800 to 1250 yards. I point the Hybrids I shoot in our club BR match (520 yds) but the jury is still out on if that is helping anything. You will never see any benefits to pointing at 100 yards (again my opinion).
My first 6 Dasher was a .267 neck; again GIGANTIC PITA! Now all my 6 PPC BR guns are gone and my long range BR guns are 6 Dasher. One has a .272 and the other a .271. My rule now is I turn both blue & gold box brass but only about .001".
Now, for standard/SAAMI type chambers, I do not turn. There is already enough room in the chamber neck to turn a Kenworth around and turning necks, IMHO, just makes things worse. I have begun using (Shriek!) the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die (as available) to size neck after body sizing to set shoulder bump. the neck is pressed onto a mandrel and the mandrel makes the inside of the neck nice and round by pushing that thick part to the outside. It isn't going to hurt anything there. Guess what; neck tension is now more uniform and ES/SD numbers are falling at the chronograph. That can't hurt accuracy.
Now, bullet pointing; that is something I just started doing and I am sold on the results so far. BUT, that is at ranges of 800 to 1250 yards. I point the Hybrids I shoot in our club BR match (520 yds) but the jury is still out on if that is helping anything. You will never see any benefits to pointing at 100 yards (again my opinion).
Shoot4fun +1
Like I posted at the beginning neck turning for a factory rifle is a waste of time. Yes, it may improve accuracy but you'll never notice it till you get past 5-600 yds. With this type rifle those shots are very rare. Bullet pointing? My opinion is its marginally beneficial at 600 and is beneficial at 800-1K
Like I posted at the beginning neck turning for a factory rifle is a waste of time. Yes, it may improve accuracy but you'll never notice it till you get past 5-600 yds. With this type rifle those shots are very rare. Bullet pointing? My opinion is its marginally beneficial at 600 and is beneficial at 800-1K
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Bullets are aligned by the freebore diameter, not the necks. Neck turning ensures consistent neck tension. Testing at 1k shows neck tension is extremely important as a tuning aid. Turning necks is a must for competitive shooting IMO.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Finally, some sanity. Great reply, Alex, very succinct and clear.
Jason T - I have several GAP rifles and the "standard" .308 reamer they have used in the past will cut the following chamber: .342 nk, 1deg30, .085 freebore (reamer print below). However, you should contact Ken or Dustin to find out for certain which reamer was used on your rifle. In addition to a couple barrels cut with that reamer, I have others chambered with similar reamer from Dave Kiff at PTG that is essentially identical except for a much longer freebore. I have never found it necessary to turn necks with Lapua brass and have been very pleased with how these rifles shoot. I use a 0.336" bushing and seated necks come in at 0.338" Could they shoot better if I turned necks? Maybe, but I'm guessing I'm actually the limiting factor behind the rifle, not whether the necks are turned. It's a different story with F-Open, where turning is pretty much standard. In F-TR, some do, some don't, and some split the difference with basically a skim pass to uniform the neck thickness without really cutting deeper into them.
If you're considering turning necks, I'd recommend seeing how well it shoots first, then you can directly compare to see whether you can shoot the difference and if you think it's worth it.
As I mentioned above, I have several GAP .223 and .308 rifles I use in F-TR. With proper load development, these rifles will typically shoot 5-shot groups in the 0.25-0.35 MOA range from a bipod rear bag, which is how I shoot development loads. Only on rare occasions do I print groups less than 0.2 MOA (i.e. "in the ones"), and my feeling is that's probably more luck than anything. I might shoot slightly more consistently if I used a rest, but that's not how I shoot in matches, so I shoot load development the same way I shoot in a match. For me it's good enough. If a load has solid ES/SD and shoots groups in the 0.25 to 0.35 or even 0.4 MOA range, you can post very solid scores in F-TR. Generally, I would not be expecting 0.1 MOA groups to be the norm for most .308 Win F-TR rifles. If a rifle will consistently group below 0.5 MOA as I mentioned, that's more than enough. I suspect your GAP should be more than capable of sub 0.5 MOA groups without turning necks.
Just out of curiosity, why the 9-twist barrel? What are you shooting that you require such a fast twist? I have one myself for a specific purpose, but I haven't found it all that useful in F-TR. I ask in the event that if you had George build it specifically for the heavies, chances are good your chamber is not cut with the reamer I listed above. With the .085" freebore, you can jet barely seat 185 Juggernauts at .015" off the lands and still have the boattail/bearing surface junction above the neck/shoulder junction. It's not a chamber designed for anything heavier (longer). Anyhow, good luck with it.
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I will tell you why I neck turn. we cant get a good supply of brass so started neckturning and annealing the brass I had. did the gun shoot better? well some time yes some time no but the brass loved it. case in point==6.5x47 30 reloads==7mm rem mag 12 reloads==new 300rum on 6 reloads==25.06 on 19 reloads and all the brass is doing good with no split necks. as we have 20 members in a little club they keep me busy doing all there brass but it is fun for me as I am retired. I keep good records so I will say guns usally shoot a little better. we all hate to shoot just paper as we shoot steel& bowling pins out to 1000yds.
Thank you all again!
Gstaylorg- I really appreciate the time you put into answering the question, and I think it makes a lot of sense! The rifle will currently shoot groups into a single cloverleaf hole if I do my part to keep it there. The 9 twist is definitely fast. I did that in anticipation of being able to stabilize the heaviest bullets possible in the .308 - the 230gr Hybrids specifically. However, GAP did not throat it long, as far as I know. I lengthened the throat using the Uni-throater after I had broken in the barrel so that the freebore is more in line with the newer "BoreRider FTR" reamer that PTG is now selling. I forget what my rifle actually has in freebore, but I seem to recall it's about .180". I seat the 230 hybrids with an OAL of 3.1" and a 0.020" jump to the lands. This keeps the bearing surface of the bullet supported by the whole neck of case (speaking of turning necks) and allows another 0.15" worth of chasing the lands as the throat wears. It also allows me to push the heavy pills at around 2500 fps which stays supersonic to about 1300-1400 yards. I'm thinking of taking a trip out to BLM desert land to try a mile just for sh*ts and giggles.
Gstaylorg- I really appreciate the time you put into answering the question, and I think it makes a lot of sense! The rifle will currently shoot groups into a single cloverleaf hole if I do my part to keep it there. The 9 twist is definitely fast. I did that in anticipation of being able to stabilize the heaviest bullets possible in the .308 - the 230gr Hybrids specifically. However, GAP did not throat it long, as far as I know. I lengthened the throat using the Uni-throater after I had broken in the barrel so that the freebore is more in line with the newer "BoreRider FTR" reamer that PTG is now selling. I forget what my rifle actually has in freebore, but I seem to recall it's about .180". I seat the 230 hybrids with an OAL of 3.1" and a 0.020" jump to the lands. This keeps the bearing surface of the bullet supported by the whole neck of case (speaking of turning necks) and allows another 0.15" worth of chasing the lands as the throat wears. It also allows me to push the heavy pills at around 2500 fps which stays supersonic to about 1300-1400 yards. I'm thinking of taking a trip out to BLM desert land to try a mile just for sh*ts and giggles.
What I would recommend based on the information you shared it to FOREGO turning necks. I wouldn't even bother with a skim turn.
We already established there may or may not be an accuracy gain which is minimal at best. Also, turning necks will require a lot of work.
We haven't confirmed but we can safely assume your chamber is not set up to turn to a specific neck diameter.
If your GAP has the same neck clearance as Sheldon's GAP of 0.004" on unturned Lapua brass you may be over-working your brass during firing and sizing which may open up a can of worms in itself including accuracy issues induced during the sizing operation.
A lot of experienced shooters taught me that 0.004" neck clearance is about ideal if you expect to shoot prone or in a dusty/dirty environment. Even a skim turn will open that clearance up to 0.005"+
Save neck turning for the next barrel when/if you decide to go to tighter chamber.
We already established there may or may not be an accuracy gain which is minimal at best. Also, turning necks will require a lot of work.
We haven't confirmed but we can safely assume your chamber is not set up to turn to a specific neck diameter.
If your GAP has the same neck clearance as Sheldon's GAP of 0.004" on unturned Lapua brass you may be over-working your brass during firing and sizing which may open up a can of worms in itself including accuracy issues induced during the sizing operation.
A lot of experienced shooters taught me that 0.004" neck clearance is about ideal if you expect to shoot prone or in a dusty/dirty environment. Even a skim turn will open that clearance up to 0.005"+
Save neck turning for the next barrel when/if you decide to go to tighter chamber.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
A couple of things:
Whether something has an effect on accuracy depends a lot on where you are with other factors that may be more important. Also, this is the kind of thing that I would do my own testing on, and believe my targets. I run into fellows who seem to think that they can work on shooting really small at short range with no wind flags, or do not really have a handle on tuning, or perhaps are working with equipment issues, shaky bench, bad rest to stock interface, etc. Until these issues are properly addressed, results will be inconsistent, and IMO worrying about whether to turn Lapua brass is a complete waste of time. I guess the first question should be, if you go to the range, foul your bore, and then over the course of the morning shoot five five shot groups, what will their average size be? If that average is too large, I think that this is an indication that there are much more important issues that need to be dealt with. On the other hand, if that average is very good, and you are looking to make it better, then the small things can become significant. Back in the day, with a factory rifle that shot pretty well, a .222, I compared turned to unturned brass for accuracy and could see no advantage. My groups with that rifle were around 3/8 - 7/16 with or without necks being turned, using American brass that was certainly not as consistent as Lapua. Back in those days I didn't work up loads at the range, and I was not using flags, so I was a perfect example of someone who had bigger fish to fry.
Whether something has an effect on accuracy depends a lot on where you are with other factors that may be more important. Also, this is the kind of thing that I would do my own testing on, and believe my targets. I run into fellows who seem to think that they can work on shooting really small at short range with no wind flags, or do not really have a handle on tuning, or perhaps are working with equipment issues, shaky bench, bad rest to stock interface, etc. Until these issues are properly addressed, results will be inconsistent, and IMO worrying about whether to turn Lapua brass is a complete waste of time. I guess the first question should be, if you go to the range, foul your bore, and then over the course of the morning shoot five five shot groups, what will their average size be? If that average is too large, I think that this is an indication that there are much more important issues that need to be dealt with. On the other hand, if that average is very good, and you are looking to make it better, then the small things can become significant. Back in the day, with a factory rifle that shot pretty well, a .222, I compared turned to unturned brass for accuracy and could see no advantage. My groups with that rifle were around 3/8 - 7/16 with or without necks being turned, using American brass that was certainly not as consistent as Lapua. Back in those days I didn't work up loads at the range, and I was not using flags, so I was a perfect example of someone who had bigger fish to fry.
Boyd it's great to hear from someone like you! I will take your advice very seriously - for now, the consensus seems to be: Neck turning MIGHT make a noticeable difference if all other factors like bedding, rest/bipod consistency, cheek weld, charge weight consistency, primer consistency, and OAL variations are perfectly controlled.
I think I will forgo the neck turning - so thank you everybody for saving me $180 worth of neck turning equipment and countless hours!!
I think I will forgo the neck turning - so thank you everybody for saving me $180 worth of neck turning equipment and countless hours!!
I wish this forum has a "Super Like" button.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Jason T,
Rig up some wind flags. Pointed sticks with surveyors' tape tied to their tops hanging down to the ground are a lot better than nothing. Also, what is your trigger pull weight? One thing that can be huge for trigger control and gun handling is dry fire practice. You can see problems that are obscured when the rifle is actually fired. Pay a lot of attention to follow through. You should not react as the rifle fires, and hold position for a bit after.
Rig up some wind flags. Pointed sticks with surveyors' tape tied to their tops hanging down to the ground are a lot better than nothing. Also, what is your trigger pull weight? One thing that can be huge for trigger control and gun handling is dry fire practice. You can see problems that are obscured when the rifle is actually fired. Pay a lot of attention to follow through. You should not react as the rifle fires, and hold position for a bit after.
Boyd,
Thanks again! I'll make up some wind flags, and I will do the dry fire exercises - should I just use a snap cap? My trigger weight is actually an interesting answer. My Remington 700 action (trued by GAP w/ the new barrel) was donated from a Remington 700P LTR, so it had the older remington trigger. This allowed me to fit a kleinendorst (spell check?) single-set trigger. So my "tactical" pull is set at ~2lb, but the "Target" set weight is easily less than a pound, probably like 10oz. I actually can't measure it with my RCBS trigger pull gauge because it's so low.
A actually went back and read some of the advice you've given to various forum members - you mentioned getting square behind the gun rather than sitting at a 45 - I'll try that next time too. The return to battery is never centered at the POA, so I need to work on that. I guess that means that the gun isn't tracking straight and true?
Boyd, I'm down just north of Los Angeles - If you're ever down this way, there are ranges in San Luis Obispo (targets out to 600 and gongs at 7 and 800 I think) and Lake Piru (targets out to 400 yds then gongs/steel out to the 1000 yard 12" gong) that are nice. I'd love to buy you lunch/beer and pick your brain the next time you're around, though I'm sure you're quite busy!
Jason
Thanks again! I'll make up some wind flags, and I will do the dry fire exercises - should I just use a snap cap? My trigger weight is actually an interesting answer. My Remington 700 action (trued by GAP w/ the new barrel) was donated from a Remington 700P LTR, so it had the older remington trigger. This allowed me to fit a kleinendorst (spell check?) single-set trigger. So my "tactical" pull is set at ~2lb, but the "Target" set weight is easily less than a pound, probably like 10oz. I actually can't measure it with my RCBS trigger pull gauge because it's so low.
A actually went back and read some of the advice you've given to various forum members - you mentioned getting square behind the gun rather than sitting at a 45 - I'll try that next time too. The return to battery is never centered at the POA, so I need to work on that. I guess that means that the gun isn't tracking straight and true?
Boyd, I'm down just north of Los Angeles - If you're ever down this way, there are ranges in San Luis Obispo (targets out to 600 and gongs at 7 and 800 I think) and Lake Piru (targets out to 400 yds then gongs/steel out to the 1000 yard 12" gong) that are nice. I'd love to buy you lunch/beer and pick your brain the next time you're around, though I'm sure you're quite busy!
Jason
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