tuner questions

[Greyfox]

When I load I mite do it a few days in advance. And my tune is for a head wind The day of the shoot we have a tail wind . Without a tuner I'm toast. Larry

OK, I've read this a half dozen times and I have no idea what is being said. All a tuner does is change the point in the barrel oscillation when the bullet leaves the barrel (same as velocity with powder charge). How does the direction of the wind change that point?

Rick

 

[vahena]

OK, I've read this a half dozen times and I have no idea what is being said. All a tuner does is change the point in the barrel oscillation when the bullet leaves the barrel (same as velocity with powder charge). How does the direction of the wind change that point?

Rick

greyfox,
I am no national record holder but I understand common sense, I think. You get your load as fine tuned as you can, put the tuner on and do a rough test, lets say your tuner has 15 revolutions, you take two shot at ea. full revolution from 0 to 15 setting, you will see many various groups and I think you will have about 2 nodes that are not bad, lets say between 3rd and 4th rotation and another at 11 and 12
Then you shoot 3 rounds at say 3, and than proceed to 3.1 and so on. You will see your groups closing up or getting worse, than turn it in the opposite direction, to where you see your tightest groups at either node. Hopefully tighter than you were before the tuner was installed and in my case it work perfectly at 3.2 and that is were I leave it set.
For wind values I dont change the tuner setting, I will hold over or adjust the scope. In my head I dont see changing the tuner for the wind but as the weather changes from say early morning to late afternoon heat that would be were the tuner change comes in handy to adjust the harmonics to the change in temperatures verses load change.
Again I am new to the tuner useage but it is working for me, I only hope I explained it correctly.
Rob

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

greyfox,
I am no national record holder but I understand common sense, I think. You get your load as fine tuned as you can, put the tuner on and do a rough test, lets say your tuner has 15 revolutions, you take two shot at ea. full revolution from 0 to 15 setting, you will see many various groups and I think you will have about 2 nodes that are not bad, lets say between 3rd and 4th rotation and another at 11 and 12
Then you shoot 3 rounds at say 3, and than proceed to 3.1 and so on. You will see your groups closing up or getting worse, than turn it in the opposite direction, to where you see your tightest groups at either node. Hopefully tighter than you were before the tuner was installed and in my case it work perfectly at 3.2 and that is were I leave it set.
For wind values I dont change the tuner setting, I will hold over or adjust the scope. In my head I dont see changing the tuner for the wind but as the weather changes from say early morning to late afternoon heat that would be were the tuner change comes in handy to adjust the harmonics to the change in temperatures verses load change.
Again I am new to the tuner useage but it is working for me, I only hope I explained it correctly.
Rob

Sounds like you are making the single most common mistake with tuners....WAY WAY WAY TOO BIG OF ADJUSTMENTS.

 

[savagedasher]

OK, I've read this a half dozen times and I have no idea what is being said. All a tuner does is change the point in the barrel oscillation when the bullet leaves the barrel (same as velocity with powder charge). How does the direction of the wind change that point?

Rick

OK, I've read this a half dozen times and I have no idea what is being said. All a tuner does is change the point in the barrel oscillation when the bullet leaves the barrel (same as velocity with powder charge). How does the direction of the wind change that point?

Rick

Tuners Change the impact of the bullet around the point of aim . If you use the point of aim for a reference you will see the tuner work . Every time you move the tuner You see the bullets move both up and down and right and left from the point of aim . If you have say vertical bullet impact on target turn the tuner and you may see the vertical now has changed to horizontal or one hole.
Do the same process again and you will get the same results . Simple Yes
Now do you want the tune to be up above the point of aim or below
Personally I like below in a head wind and above in a tail wind .
I normally find this in less then a full turn.
Tuners are not barrel tuners . They just attached to barrel so that makes them system tuner. Just get a good tune and put thumb pressure on the stock Larry

 

[savagedasher]

Sounds like you are making the single most common mistake with tuners....WAY WAY WAY TOO BIG OF ADJUSTMENTS.

And WAY like

Sounds like you are making the single most common mistake with tuners....WAY WAY WAY TOO BIG OF ADJUSTMENTS.

And like 14 ways to much. Larry

 

[vahena]

In use, I begin shooting on the warm up target...while conditions are typically best of the day, at the same setting I used last. This is usually close but may or may not need a small adjustment in either direction. If forced to "guess" before firing a couple of sighters, I can do so with pretty good results by moving or leaving it alone, based on temps. For example...say I last shot late in the day at 85 degrees and today it 45...I may very well start by moving the tuner OUT by one hash mark. I do this only because of the wide temp swing and EXPECTED change in tune as a result. All this gains me is a two or three less sighters shots, while tuning on the warm up target. One can very easily just start where it was last set and come to the same place. Either way, I may or may not be dialed in precisely yet and will base any further movement of the tuner on size and shape of groups on the sighters target. If I'm close, my next move will likely be something less than a full mark on either or both sides of this setting. Gene Beggs said it very well when he describes it as being as simple as adjusting the focus ring on a scope. Many times with my tuner, the last setting used when last shot will still be in tune the next day...or week, and I don't need to move it. Same goes for shooting throughout a day or match...Many times I can shoot the match without moving it at all...but when I do, this is very important to remember. ...I'll always be very close. The biggest adjustment I've ever needed to make during a match and from a good tune, was two marks throughout the day. That was a day where the Temps went from around the upper 30's and ending in the 80's. The key is knowing what to do and when. This comes with time but it's not difficult at all. Some shooters bring 2-3 loads to the bench....I bring a tuner. Same deal.----Mike Ezell

Hello Mike, you mentioned I move my tuner way, way too much. I am doing exactly what you said above. I get a rough tune and then I test that so called node by moving the tuner 1 increment or 1 mark at a time either way, to get the grouping tighter. Am I misunderstanding you or did I not explain it correctly

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Hello Mike, you mentioned I move my tuner way, way too much. I am doing exactly what you said above. I get a rough tune and then I test that so called node by moving the tuner 1 increment or 1 mark at a time either way, to get the grouping tighter. Am I misunderstanding you or did I not explain it correctly

If it works for you, then do it. I only disagree with how you start by turning full revolutions until stumbling into a spot that seems close. The reason is that I think you need to know what completely in and out of tune correlates to in tuner movement. This range of movement is all you'll ever need...and then some. As long as your method lends itself to you knowing how far and when to move it, it'll be fine..imho.

 

[Greyfox]

Hello Mike, you mentioned I move my tuner way, way too much. I am doing exactly what you said above. I get a rough tune and then I test that so called node by moving the tuner 1 increment or 1 mark at a time either way, to get the grouping tighter. Am I misunderstanding you or did I not explain it correctly

Rob,
I guess I didn't make myself clear earlier. I understand how and why tuners work and have them on all of my competition rifles, with the exception of a Factory Class Cooper. What I was puzzled about was adjusting a tuner to compensate for wind direction. Larry's explanation clarified why he does it, but I still don't see the point. Tuners are a simple tool to adjust when the bullet leaves the barrel. Once a person understands how they work on their own rifle I suppose he can get into more esoteric uses. For simple people like me it works well to start most anywhere and fire a 3 shot group. If it has vertical make a small adjustment, maybe 1 mark (depending on how you tuner is marked) or about 1/8" in either direction. Fire another group and see if the vertical is larger or smaller. If it is larger turn the tuner in the opposite direction. If smaller go a little further in the direction you are chose first. If you have an accurate rifle and are tuning in readable wind, it shouldn't take more than a few groups to bring the rifle in tune. It should never be necessary to make a full revolution, small adjustments will do what you need. As Mike mentioned, unless you have some pretty wide temperature changes during the day, you shouldn't need to make much of an adjustment. If you do, they will be very small. When our matches have a temperature change during a full day of maybe 15-20º, I don't find the need to adjust at all. I have one rifle with a 1.25" full bull barrel, that I have never needed to adjust since the first time I located the proper placement for the tuner. I have about 1000 rounds on it now and it still shoots very well and will group in the .1's at 100 yards.

I don't know why anyone would adjust a tuner to change the POI on a target up or down as a scope adjustment would seem to be much quicker and easier, but if that works for Larry, who am I to argue. I'll just say for simple people, getting the vertical out is the quickest, easiest approach. I've heard it said that the tuner will also tune out horizontal. I've not experienced that, but again, who am I to say it doesn't work. I only shoot short range benchrest and can't say what happens 600-1000 yards down range. It's difficult enough for us simple people to figure out what the wind is doing to the bullet as opposed to what tuner changes do. I will add that when a rifle is in tune the bullet will do exactly what the wind charts say it should. When it is out of tune, you get weird groups doing things that wind charts don't show.

YMMV,
Rick

 

[johnmyers]

I have Mikes tuner and it flat out works. Tune your load at 0 and only have to move a max of 2 hash marks either way to get in tune, all about temp. It's really very easy no need to over engineer. This is a high quality tuner.

 

[savagedasher]

Rob,
I guess I didn't make myself clear earlier. I understand how and why tuners work and have them on all of my competition rifles, with the exception of a Factory Class Cooper. What I was puzzled about was adjusting a tuner to compensate for wind direction. Larry's explanation clarified why he does it, but I still don't see the point. Tuners are a simple tool to adjust when the bullet leaves the barrel. Once a person understands how they work on their own rifle I suppose he can get into more esoteric uses. For simple people like me it works well to start most anywhere and fire a 3 shot group. If it has vertical make a small adjustment, maybe 1 mark (depending on how you tuner is marked) or about 1/8" in either direction. Fire another group and see if the vertical is larger or smaller. If it is larger turn the tuner in the opposite direction. If smaller go a little further in the direction you are chose first. If you have an accurate rifle and are tuning in readable wind, it shouldn't take more than a few groups to bring the rifle in tune. It should never be necessary to make a full revolution, small adjustments will do what you need. As Mike mentioned, unless you have some pretty wide temperature changes during the day, you shouldn't need to make much of an adjustment. If you do, they will be very small. When our matches have a temperature change during a full day of maybe 15-20º, I don't find the need to adjust at all. I have one rifle with a 1.25" full bull barrel, that I have never needed to adjust since the first time I located the proper placement for the tuner. I have about 1000 rounds on it now and it still shoots very well and will group in the .1's at 100 yards.

I don't know why anyone would adjust a tuner to change the POI on a target up or down as a scope adjustment would seem to be much quicker and easier, but if that works for Larry, who am I to argue. I'll just say for simple people, getting the vertical out is the quickest, easiest approach. I've heard it said that the tuner will also tune out horizontal. I've not experienced that, but again, who am I to say it doesn't work. I only shoot short range benchrest and can't say what happens 600-1000 yards down range. It's difficult enough for us simple people to figure out what the wind is doing to the bullet as opposed to what tuner changes do. I will add that when a rifle is in tune the bullet will do exactly what the wind charts say it should. When it is out of tune, you get weird groups doing things that wind charts don't show.

YMMV,
Rick

Rick
I didn't make my self clear also . With a tuner I can move the direction the bullets are impacting to one to another on target . The point of aim thing is the target only has vertical and horizontal lines . Never tunning did I see the bullet the bullet change that location . Say the target vertical Simple tune make the bullet go faster or slow it down . or tune the tuner . Bullet speed Is the key for vertical But you can and do have wind effect on target Depending on the wind direction 1. you have to change loads 2 Live with the results 3 or adjust the tuner
RAS tuners Has information on how to tune and what to expect .
But they are the only one that guarantees them for results .
The point that was misses
Jim stated that RAS TUNERS has a MONEY back guarantee . Larry

 

[Greyfox]

Rick
I didn't make my self clear also . With a tuner I can move the direction the bullets are impacting to one to another on target . The point of aim thing is the target only has vertical and horizontal lines . Never tunning did I see the bullet the bullet change that location . Say the target vertical Simple tune make the bullet go faster or slow it down . or tune the tuner . Bullet speed Is the key for vertical But you can and do have wind effect on target Depending on the wind direction 1. you have to change loads 2 Live with the results 3 or adjust the tuner
RAS tuners Has information on how to tune and what to expect .
But they are the only one that guarantees them for results .
The point that was misses
Jim stated that RAS TUNERS has a MONEY back guarantee . Larry

Larry,
I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Rick