Timing - Good, Bad, Correction of? Importance?

[jds holler]

Been shooting rifles all my life, and until joining this forum never really heard much concerning this issue. In my quest of someday achieving almost human intelligence, I'd appreciate learning about action timing.

How would improper timing be defined, or detected? How corrected.

Are particular actions more affected, or are all bolt guns an issue. How important is this issue?

Thanks in advance for your advice and patience. jd

 

[Preacher]

The majority of the timing problems are with Primary extraction, and 99% of Remintons are not even close...
The edge of the handle needs to touch the cam on the side of the receiver to help with extracting a tight case in the chamber..
Pull the firing pin assembly out of the bolt body and place the bolt body back into the receiver, and watch where the bolt handle and the side of the receiver contact each other.
They should touch as soon as your off the internal lugs, and they usually don't.
The only way to correct it is to remove the bolt handle and slide it forward until the 2 piece's meet where they should, and resolder or tig it back together making sure you have clearance for the bolt notch.
Even that will not always correct the problem, but a new bolt & handle from PT&G will more often than not take care of the problem if set up right..

 

[jds holler]

Thank you, I think I now understand the basic reason for good timing. Gonna have to check my 700's and see where I'm at. jd

 

[BoydAllen]

There is also the matter of when the trigger picks up the cocking piece. A lot of rifles have some amount of cock on close, this is not an accuracy issue for most applications, but it can be in benchrest.

 

[bobinpa]

There is also the matter of when the trigger picks up the cocking piece. A lot of rifles have some amount of cock on close, this is not an accuracy issue for most applications, but it can be in benchrest.

How does cock on close have an effect on accuracy? And why only in benchrest? ...... I assume because of how critical the accuracy is in benchrest, but please help me understand.

 

[riverwolf1]

To add to the already excellent advice and information if you do have a timing issue, theres a gentleman that posts on here dans40x who is the best at timing a bolt, he does great work and has a great turn around time. Hopefully he will ad to this post.

 

[BoydAllen]

When you are shooting a really accurate rifle that has a stock that is typical of those used in benchrest , any extra effort required on the bolt handle will rock the rifle in its bags, and that will tend to cause sand to pile up in the middle of the front bag, which reduces roll stability and can open up groups. For those particular types of competition, unlike most other shooting, in order to be competitive you need a rifle that can shoot 25 shot averages (under the best conditions) that are well under .2000. In that situation, very small issues are likely to make a difference. Some can be compensated for, but the amount that it takes to do so, amounts to a disadvantage when conditions allow running a whole, or part of a group. Here is a good example of a top shooter shooting a tiny group at 200 yards at the Worlds Benchrest Championship.

Notice how smooth his movements are, and how little the operation of the rifle disturbs its interface with the bags. Rifles react to how they are supported, and at the top level of accuracy it is important, particularly when shooting free recoil that that support be consistent from shot to shot. BTW IMO many shooters think that a very light hold their rifle is how bench shooting is "supposed to be done". If the recoil, trigger weight, stock design, rest and sand bags are not just right for that style of shooting they are dead wrong. There are ways to hold a rifle that work, and some that do not give the best results, the only way to arrive at what works best for your situation is to experiment.

 

[Scott Harris]

How does cock on close have an effect on accuracy? And why only in benchrest? ...... I assume because of how critical the accuracy is in benchrest, but please help me understand.

I think he means it will disrupt the rifle in the bags because you have to work the bolt harder. As he said, this really isn't a concern for anything but benchrest. You want to have enough firing pin fall for proper ignition and cock on close increases firing pin fall...so at least that's a good thing.

 

[Lightload]

To add to the already excellent advice and information if you do have a timing issue, theres a gentleman that posts on here dans40x who is the best at timing a bolt, he does great work and has a great turn around time. Hopefully he will ad to this post.

Yep, Dan did one for me just recently and the bolt now works great! His work is fast and very reasonably priced.

 

[bobinpa]

When you are shooting a really accurate rifle that has a stock that is typical of those used in benchrest , any extra effort required on the bolt handle will rock the rifle in its bags, and that will tend to cause sand to pile up in the middle of the front bag, which reduces roll stability and can open up groups. For those particular types of competition, unlike most other shooting, in order to be competitive you need a rifle that can shoot 25 shot averages (under the best conditions) that are well under .2000. In that situation, very small issues are likely to make a difference. Some can be compensated for, but the amount that it takes to do so, amounts to a disadvantage when conditions allow running a whole, or part of a group. Here is a good example of a top shooter shooting a tiny group at 200 yards at the Worlds Benchrest Championship.

Notice how smooth his movements are, and how little the operation of the rifle disturbs its interface with the bags. Rifles react to how they are supported, and at the top level of accuracy it is important, particularly when shooting free recoil that that support be consistent from shot to shot. BTW IMO many shooters think that a very light hold their rifle is how bench shooting is "supposed to be done". If the recoil, trigger weight, stock design, rest and sand bags are not just right for that style of shooting they are dead wrong. There are ways to hold a rifle that work, and some that do not give the best results, the only way to arrive at what works best for your situation is to experiment.

Thanks. That's what I thought........the effect on accuracy comes from the disruption of the bags/gun. I wasn't sure if there was an effect on accuracy from the firing spring tension or something else. Thank you.

 

[jds holler]

Thanks you guys for the input. I'm at the point with my rifle, where this and other little details are going to have to be addressed to realize further improvement.

With several different bullets and loads, I easily get to the sub .5 MOA zone, and frequently in the .3's. I haven't yet broken into the .2's, and I suspect that the problem is my rather primitive, shooting bench, bags, rifle control, personal technique, etc.. jd

 

[Dans40X]

You Tube video's on bolt handle TIMING/BRAZING not withstanding-

Handle LOCATION(fwd/aft) is one issue.
Handle TIMING(radially) for primary extraction is another issue,which CAN NOT be addressed by silver brazing.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

To correct for primary extraction(radially) you now have battery issues.

Adding screws to the handle,tells me,the plumber hasn't the slightest clue how to silver braze.

Firing Pin Striker to Sear/Safety Bar Timing-
You Tube video's on firing pin cocking cam BASTARDIZATION is someone practicing on your equipment.

Aluminum shank/Speed Lock firing pins WILL NOT reduce lock time in a Remington.
The heavier mainspring spring will hit harder .....yes.
The heavier spring will make bolt manipulation harder.....yes.

Allowing angles to work in unison makes for 2 finger bolt manipulation on a Remington!

Don't slam your bolt into battery-
trigger pull will vary......drastically until properly TIMED !!

 

[Rustystud]

Dan said it like a pro. Because this is not his first rodeo. Dan had been fixing Remingtons for years now. I talk with Dan regularly he is a smart guy and has forgotten more than most gunsmith will ever know. I listen and learn from him every time we talk.
Nat Lambeth