I love it when that happens. Usually, if I manage to do my part adequately, the results appear on the target.fire your round and you get single digit Sdevs.
I love it when that happens. Usually, if I manage to do my part adequately, the results appear on the target.fire your round and you get single digit Sdevs.
And the group sizes are perfect too.I love it when that happens. Usually, if I manage to do my part adequately, the results appear on the target.
I kind of wish you are right as it would be a hell of a lot less work and cheaper, but…
I don’t think anyone will be mad, everyone has a right to his opinion and you are actually right that there are 2 types of annealer but they are not what you think they are. The two types are
1) those who anneal to reduce their chance of the neck splitting and they are only plinking, so from that perspective, annealing your case unevenly with a drill and socket works just fine. As long as they don’t heat the case so much so that the head of the case goes soft, they are safe and GTO.
2) those who anneal so that they get as perfect as possible shoulder bump and neck tension as possible, these folks use a machine because you can only do this with a machine, and yes, they definitely do not heat the case until it is dead soft. You know you are there when you go through all your brass prep and your headspace measurements vary by less than a thousands, seat a bullet with something like a K&M seating force measuring rig and you find your neck tension does not varied by more than 10 units, and fire your round and you get single digit Sdevs.
Now now, youngster. We "older guys" have a little more time on our hands, so we CAN over obsess about such things!
I'll lay down good money and bet that most advancements in the field come from guys that do just that!
Not at all, most people can't but if you can shoot lights out with what you do, more power to you.What makes you think {actually I already know...it was the money you paid for the big time machine} that I don't get single digit SD, with scorched black or pretty in pink, rainbows and unicorns, slightly annealed cases????? I honestly cannot verify with any device a difference on target or chronograph no matter how I anneal my cases. Sorry guys, I know you need to justify the purchase, I know you want to impress the guys that cant afford it or have a wife that says no, but it just isn't there. Not for me anyways.
"What I will say is that the data on very fast annealing times is not terribly easy to come by, but this is my best guess at it given what I know."
I put this chart up on the website about twice a year. I cut necks off Lapua Blue Box 6BR cases and annealed them in a lab quality furnace +/- 2F. The cases had several firings on them. The samples were attached to a fine NiChrome wire and lowered into the furnace thru a 1/2" hole in the top of the furnace to prevent temp loss from opening the door. I had a hard time deciding how long to anneal. I used 15 seconds because I didn't know how long it would take to get to temp and I was only wiling to do about 20 samples on Co. time. Also did 5 minutes. If anything it shows that 15 seconds at 800F there is only a drop of several hardness units. As long as the necks don't get a hint of red in a dark room I don't see how you can damage a case.
An engineer PHD I used to work is now a consultant to the copper industry. He told me that a red color on brass is 1050F. Everyone will interpret light red , bright red ect. differently.
Excellent stuff - better than what I've been able to track down which is data on lager samples, which showed that 15 seconds at about 1200 degrees was enough to take a sample from roughly half hard to fully annealed. So what you're saying is not at all out of line at all with what I have seen.
What I'm most interested in is that same data, but holding temperature constant (say, 1100) and varying the annealing time from 1 to 30 seconds. (I know, this is difficult to actually do). I have some data like that (but over much longer time periods and with much bigger samples) that shows that full annealing happens very quickly (under a few minutes), but that data is unavailable below a few minutes, and again, the samples are much larger, so it's not terribly useful. Yours is certainly helpful.
What I suspect is that case necks do anneal fully very rapidly at the temperatures that torches put out - that dull red color. However, I can certainly be convinced that several seconds under a torch is *not* fully annealing the brass in at least some cases. In fact, it makes me wonder how consistently people are annealing their brass, and not knowing it. Or if some of the more folks are just heating their brass and doing nothing.
I really should update that annealing article - I sort of glossed over the time-temperature relationship in an attempt to simplify things. In hindsight, I probably should have gone into more detail. Would you mind if I use this data in a a follow up article? I'm happy to attribute it to it's proper source.
Yes you can use my chart. I realize how difficult it is to find rapid annealing info. That's why I annealed some cases at work where I had all of the equipment. Remember for my data it was for almost a continuous 15 sec or 5 minutes, not slowly going up to temp. I think each factory that does rapid annealing on very small or thin pieces has their QC people work out the details for their particular parts and they don't publish the details. The cartridge manufacturers to my knowledge have never released the annealing details for all of the intermediate steps in making a case. You only see pictures of the final neck/shoulder anneal with a flame. They are probably annealed with a moving belt furnace. You have to remember that if you anneal with a torch for something like five seconds you are going from room temp to 750F. You are at the very bottom of the annealing temperature range for maybe 1/2 to 1 second.
Webster did you ever test the neck hardness of a new blue box case. Wud love to know what it is because I dont think they anneal it much softer than the rest of the case or at least they dont do it as soft as I used to do my annealing.
Never tested a new case. Didn't have one. i am retired now and no access to testing equipment. My opinion is that if you are annealing around 750-800F for a few seconds you have done very little to soften the case? More likely you are stress relieving it?
Tx Webster. I know a guy with a rockwell tester guess I have to sacrafice a few new cases to really get to know what is happening with my setup.
In your opinion do you have to anneal shorter when you anneal after every shot as opposed to anneal after every 5 shots?
Never tested a new case. Didn't have one. i am retired now and no access to testing equipment. My opinion is that if you are annealing around 750-800F for a few seconds you have done very little to soften the case? More likely you are stress relieving it?
If you do this, PLEASE share the results. If proper temperature data can't be had (it's easier said than done to collect), it would be nice to get a before and after hardness test of cases after 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, etc seconds in the flame. (video would be great too).
Also interesting would be harness tests before and after sizing, and before and after firing. That would (partially) answer your question.
Tx Webster. I know a guy with a rockwell tester guess I have to sacrafice a few new cases to really get to know what is happening with my setup.
In your opinion do you have to anneal shorter when you anneal after every shot as opposed to anneal after every 5 shots?
I think you meant there was no place for the HEAT to travel. dedogsMany years ago I decided I would anneal a few cases. Instead of hitting it in a dead run I did some research looking for simple methods and techniques, rules and factors. In a very short time I decided to make my annealing equipment using the simple rules, factors and techniques.
15 seconds @ 1,000° is too much time at that temperature. If you were annealing cut off necks with out shoulder or case body there was no place for the head to travel.
F. Guffey
I think you meant there was no place for the HEAT to travel. dedogs