Never said they'd go flawlessly, but show my a rifle match that has manual targets that goes flawlessly. I mean a match where you don't have to call for marks, challenge, shots, speed up pit service, etc.
competing in Fclass with electronic targets
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Never said they'd go flawlessly, but show my a rifle match that has manual targets that goes flawlessly. I mean a match where you don't have to call for marks, challenge, shots, speed up pit service, etc.
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
Shawn,
I have a great deal of respect for those, like you, that go out of their way and run matches for the rest of us. I see where you are coming from, but I disagree with a few of your points.
For example, blown out spotters are not the fault of the puller nor the target. Instead, it is the shooter's responsibility to miss the spindle. All of the really good F-class shooters miraculously don't knock a whole lot of spotters compared to new shooters. When I no longer have to miss the spindle, I have one less job to do at midrange. That makes the game easier - not a good thing in my mind.
You also relate experiences from a target with 4x the surface area in the 10 and X rings. A little hiccup might be easier to ignore when that slight error in the target results in a 10 instead of X. It might make you feel differently if it resulted in lost points.
Lastly, I'm a bit confused about the boat comment. Would it be any different at Perry if ET's were on the range? I don't see how the two relate to one another.
I have had bad pullers. I've discontinued firing during a match because of a bad puller. No matter what system we use, there are risks of "unfair" results - I can live with that because I gave up on playgrounds a long time ago.
What I do not desire is to see F-class turn into a game of rapid-fire. We already shoot far too fast when we have a good puller. I've seen 20 record shots go downrange in 5-7 minutes (around 15-20 seconds average) at long range. With ET's I suspect that speed can increase significantly and wind reading will be what is done before each "burst" of fire.
I have a great deal of respect for those, like you, that go out of their way and run matches for the rest of us. I see where you are coming from, but I disagree with a few of your points.
For example, blown out spotters are not the fault of the puller nor the target. Instead, it is the shooter's responsibility to miss the spindle. All of the really good F-class shooters miraculously don't knock a whole lot of spotters compared to new shooters. When I no longer have to miss the spindle, I have one less job to do at midrange. That makes the game easier - not a good thing in my mind.
You also relate experiences from a target with 4x the surface area in the 10 and X rings. A little hiccup might be easier to ignore when that slight error in the target results in a 10 instead of X. It might make you feel differently if it resulted in lost points.
Lastly, I'm a bit confused about the boat comment. Would it be any different at Perry if ET's were on the range? I don't see how the two relate to one another.
I have had bad pullers. I've discontinued firing during a match because of a bad puller. No matter what system we use, there are risks of "unfair" results - I can live with that because I gave up on playgrounds a long time ago.
What I do not desire is to see F-class turn into a game of rapid-fire. We already shoot far too fast when we have a good puller. I've seen 20 record shots go downrange in 5-7 minutes (around 15-20 seconds average) at long range. With ET's I suspect that speed can increase significantly and wind reading will be what is done before each "burst" of fire.
Keith, less typing more shooting. Come down to Phoenix, no need to fly with a rifle, I have plenty to shoot. We will put you on one of 6 individually owned SMT we shoot at Ben Avery almost every weekend. You can gain experience first hand, then decide. You think this will become bench rest? We will put in any delay you want, ( 7 seconds is standard) or with the push of a button ( just for fun) we will go 2 or 3 to a mound and see how BA tests your wind reading skills. I invite anyone who wants to form an informed opinion to come down. E targets or manual, great shooters just find a way to get it done, all others bitch about how unfair this and that are.
Alexander-M
Gold $$ Contributor
DISCLAIMER - THOUGHTS FROM AN INEXPERIENCED SHOOTER
Although I am up in years (70) I am just starting my third year in F-Class, target rifle, so I am not that familiar with the systems. I have shot at only four ranges; two at 600 yards, and two at 1000 yards. I am doing OK at 600 yards, but just learning at 1000 yards.
I participated in last Saturday 23 April 1000-match at Camp Atterbury (Heman, Shawn Agne), where we used the Silver Mountain Targets. We were slow to get started as there was an unexpected range change, which had to be setup at the last minute. In retrospect, Shawn and his helpers did an excellent job in getting everything ready in short order.
We did not start shooting until around 11:00 am after a false start, and I wondered how late it would be by the time we were done. We had 37 shooters signed up, which meant a total of 111 strings, on seven targets. However, once Shawn and Wayne(?) did whatever had to be done, things ran smoothly, and we finished around 3 pm - not bad at all.
Did I like the electronic targets? Not at first, when I started shooting my first string, with sighters at 7, 8, 9, and finally X, indicating that I had made the proper corrections for the wind, so I was ready for score. But then the first score shot was a 7! Must have been the electronic target, I thought. No, due to inexperience, I missed the wind let up. I improved with each string as the match progressed at a rather fast pace, so at least I was learning. I also started to appreciate the SMT, which allowed instant feedback of shot POI.
My biggest problem was that since I do not own an i-Pad, or i-Phone, or any sort of i-Device, I don’t know how to operate them, and messed up my i-Pad display more than once by touching the screen the wrong way. Fortunately, several of the guys in our squad knew how to operate the i-Devices, and fixed the one I was using and everything was A-OK.
Thank you Wade, Rich, and others for your help, and Thank You Shawn - I’ll be back June 25-26!
Nando (Alex)
Although I am up in years (70) I am just starting my third year in F-Class, target rifle, so I am not that familiar with the systems. I have shot at only four ranges; two at 600 yards, and two at 1000 yards. I am doing OK at 600 yards, but just learning at 1000 yards.
I participated in last Saturday 23 April 1000-match at Camp Atterbury (Heman, Shawn Agne), where we used the Silver Mountain Targets. We were slow to get started as there was an unexpected range change, which had to be setup at the last minute. In retrospect, Shawn and his helpers did an excellent job in getting everything ready in short order.
We did not start shooting until around 11:00 am after a false start, and I wondered how late it would be by the time we were done. We had 37 shooters signed up, which meant a total of 111 strings, on seven targets. However, once Shawn and Wayne(?) did whatever had to be done, things ran smoothly, and we finished around 3 pm - not bad at all.
Did I like the electronic targets? Not at first, when I started shooting my first string, with sighters at 7, 8, 9, and finally X, indicating that I had made the proper corrections for the wind, so I was ready for score. But then the first score shot was a 7! Must have been the electronic target, I thought. No, due to inexperience, I missed the wind let up. I improved with each string as the match progressed at a rather fast pace, so at least I was learning. I also started to appreciate the SMT, which allowed instant feedback of shot POI.
My biggest problem was that since I do not own an i-Pad, or i-Phone, or any sort of i-Device, I don’t know how to operate them, and messed up my i-Pad display more than once by touching the screen the wrong way. Fortunately, several of the guys in our squad knew how to operate the i-Devices, and fixed the one I was using and everything was A-OK.
Thank you Wade, Rich, and others for your help, and Thank You Shawn - I’ll be back June 25-26!
Nando (Alex)
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"The SMT did not miss a single shot all day. For those that have not used an SMT ET, use one, for a day or three, before commenting on it. You will be surprised how accurate it is."
That's all well and good. So tell us how accurate was it? The picture doesn't tell us a thing. Measure each bullet's X and Y axis position and compare that to the computers report.
Secondly - move to a new yardage like 300 yrds either way without re-calibrating and measure axis again.
Then we'll sit up and take note. Oh and do that on a real windy day from the side.
That's all well and good. So tell us how accurate was it? The picture doesn't tell us a thing. Measure each bullet's X and Y axis position and compare that to the computers report.
Secondly - move to a new yardage like 300 yrds either way without re-calibrating and measure axis again.
Then we'll sit up and take note. Oh and do that on a real windy day from the side.
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This was several months ago, 2 f- open shooters and 2 F T/R shooting (3) 20 shot strings each. Didn't miss a shot and looks fairly well calibrated for 500 yards.All said and done, I think we should see how the large events like Midwest Palma shake out before we get too excited. My and many other targets work great, I feel it is yet to be determined how well the system / servers are going to handle 30 targets. And yes, is it a different type of shooting, you WILL take your eyes off the flags to look down at the screen. Not better or worse, just different, and is what it is, people will have to decide if they want to play or not.
Mudcat
Gold $$ Contributor
Honestly, you dont have to "sit up and take note", as ET's are coming, and if you dont want to shoot on them, noone is going to make you to do it. But, to try and show just how accurate these things are, when set up properly, here is an overlay showing the actual target with where the SMT said the bullets hit. This was an old Gen 1 system, by the way, not the new Gen 2, nor the system installed at lodi that uses double the number of mics.
I havent done an overlay like this for one our of 1000 yard strings from butner, but we have compared the iPad screen to where the bullets have landed on the target after calibration and its basically the same accuracy you see above.
Of course, I am only using 1 target, 1 system, so who knows what we are going to see at Lodi, but I am headed up there, with a good part of our NC LR team and we will find out. I am sure we are going to hear some whining like "I was shooting Xs and all of a sudden I missed the target", as we had that happen at Butner for the last several matches, only problem for those guys, they couldnt blame the ET for their inability to catch a wind reversal as we had pulled targets and the pullers could watch the splashes inbetween the impact holes.
Now you are getting to what the real issues for the shooter are (IMO). A setup that works well is to have devices on the line in a plastic box that has a back up battery pack attached so they can run all day. These stay on the line and the shooters rock up and use them. The box provides shelter from the rain and sun and there is no mucking about with screens settings etc. Currently different devices are being trialed (at clubs I'm associated with). Typically F-class shooters prefer devices with larger screens.
Scorers use their own device (currently) - if that fails for any reason it doesn't impact the shooter as they can see their shots and keep going (again what are the rules) and they can be replayed shot by shot if needed when that shooter has finished for the score card (if score cards are bothered with as every shoot can be saved to the server).
IMO the device thing is the biggest difference with ETs as there is a bit of mucking around to set them up and connect to the ET - long days need long battery life (I guarantee that the temptation to leave your device hooked up and to watch a shooter from your car will be high - if allowed) - multi day shoots need chargers and somewhere to charge the device etc.
Big events with more resources might provide both shooter and scorer devices.
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There has to be a way to bring electronic targets on, but still keep the game the same. The worst thing that can happen to Fclass is to turn it into a 20 as fast as you can shoot them before a change in the constant, 7 sec delay is a start.
That said, for some of us that do not have access to staffed ranges, bunkers and pullers, this is the best practice enhancer ever
That said, for some of us that do not have access to staffed ranges, bunkers and pullers, this is the best practice enhancer ever
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By boats in the impact area I'm referring to at Perry when a match is stopped for 15-20 minutes because we can't shoot. If a ET system does go down it would be for less time than this. You don't here people complain about not wanting to shoot at Perry because of a 10-15minute boat stopage you can pretty much count on daily once or twice. But yet if that would happen with an ET system people would howl like crazy.
As far as the spindle comment, I'll have to Check with one of our shooters who tied the NRA mid-range record last year. I'm pretty sure he hit a couple of spindles that day. I've been around a lot of good shooters and I've never once heard any shooter say they aimed to miss a spindle.
As far as the accuracy when I tested the SMT system at the farm I shot a 20 shot string measured the X/Y for each shot. I realize people will find fault with this but the system was off by 1 mm in the X and 1.5mm in the Y. This was confirmed at 100yd and 300yd, would go out farther by my farm only lets me go this far. We do plan to test sometime at Atterbury.
We provide Kindles they have cases on them so they work in the rain. You prop them up on an ammo box. People bring their own devices. Heck cellphones work.
Rusty to your point I'm sure the HexSystem is better or could possibly be better. But at the price that thing costs nobody can afford it, or if people do they are very large clubs. Bring your price down to where it is affordable and then maybe it could be taken serious by most clubs. Like saying a Lexus or Infinity is better than a Honda.
You can program a delay into the SMT system, just isn't activated according to Wayne. So that would slow down the F-class shooters. I will say at our place they still shoot fast but they are machine gunning like I thought they would. The good f-class shooters will read the wind with e-targets just like pulled targets the beginners will machine gun them down just like they do with pulled targets.
People that like to bad mouth the SMT systems are people I'm guessing have never shot on them. Also I didn't realize some of you only shoot X's and 10's and if you'd shoot a 7 or 6 its either pit pullers or the E-targets. I guess I didn't get that notice when I got my HM card as I still shoot an occasional 6 or 7.
As far as the target yes our target is larger but we have to hold our rifles they wobble, they aren't held in a rest. I've shot some f-class its not easy at all. But just because we have a bigger target doesn't mean what we do is automatically easier and accuracy isn't an issue with sling shooters either.
As far as the spindle comment, I'll have to Check with one of our shooters who tied the NRA mid-range record last year. I'm pretty sure he hit a couple of spindles that day. I've been around a lot of good shooters and I've never once heard any shooter say they aimed to miss a spindle.
As far as the accuracy when I tested the SMT system at the farm I shot a 20 shot string measured the X/Y for each shot. I realize people will find fault with this but the system was off by 1 mm in the X and 1.5mm in the Y. This was confirmed at 100yd and 300yd, would go out farther by my farm only lets me go this far. We do plan to test sometime at Atterbury.
We provide Kindles they have cases on them so they work in the rain. You prop them up on an ammo box. People bring their own devices. Heck cellphones work.
Rusty to your point I'm sure the HexSystem is better or could possibly be better. But at the price that thing costs nobody can afford it, or if people do they are very large clubs. Bring your price down to where it is affordable and then maybe it could be taken serious by most clubs. Like saying a Lexus or Infinity is better than a Honda.
You can program a delay into the SMT system, just isn't activated according to Wayne. So that would slow down the F-class shooters. I will say at our place they still shoot fast but they are machine gunning like I thought they would. The good f-class shooters will read the wind with e-targets just like pulled targets the beginners will machine gun them down just like they do with pulled targets.
People that like to bad mouth the SMT systems are people I'm guessing have never shot on them. Also I didn't realize some of you only shoot X's and 10's and if you'd shoot a 7 or 6 its either pit pullers or the E-targets. I guess I didn't get that notice when I got my HM card as I still shoot an occasional 6 or 7.
As far as the target yes our target is larger but we have to hold our rifles they wobble, they aren't held in a rest. I've shot some f-class its not easy at all. But just because we have a bigger target doesn't mean what we do is automatically easier and accuracy isn't an issue with sling shooters either.
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Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
There has to be a way to bring electronic targets on, but still keep the game the same. The worst thing that can happen to Fclass is to turn it into a 20 as fast as you can shoot them before a change in the constant.
That said, for some of us that do not have access to staffed ranges, bunkers and pullers, this is the best practice enhancer ever
I really don't understand why people keep re-iterating this (non) point. It's been stated, several times in several different ways, that the use of e-targets allows for a service delay, just like using a puller. The default on a SMT system is 7 seconds, but entirely configurable from what I understand. If you want crappy service, I'm sure you can ask the match director to add a 20 second delay in to your target.
I've used an SMT e-target. It works. It's accurate. The delay was 7 seconds. I can't comment on networking a system of 30 targets, which someone else mentioned is probably one of the bigger questions and I'd agree, but networking devices together is NOT a new concept so I don't expect the wheel to have to be re-invented to make it work right.
People - please stop commenting about "F-Class turning into benchrest because of the ability to rapid-fire shots" like it's still an un-addressed point. It *ain't* happening.
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
Shawn,
That makes sense to me now. I probably just misread your post. Thank you.
I would like to see the delay made mandatory- the current NRA rules show the delay as optional.
Please don't misunderstand my comment about target size. I know first-hand that prone is not easy. It is hard in a different way than F is. I've seen F class matches decided by a scoring plug. I think that is why F class shooters are so sensitive to any demonstrable inaccuracies in scoring.
That makes sense to me now. I probably just misread your post. Thank you.
I would like to see the delay made mandatory- the current NRA rules show the delay as optional.
Please don't misunderstand my comment about target size. I know first-hand that prone is not easy. It is hard in a different way than F is. I've seen F class matches decided by a scoring plug. I think that is why F class shooters are so sensitive to any demonstrable inaccuracies in scoring.
Alexander-M
Gold $$ Contributor
I had a bit of difficulty seen the screen sometimes, but eventually got the hang of it.
Alex
Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
might be interesting to see if you can get it to work with something like a Kindle reader. I've used a Kindle with my target camera and it's easily readable, even in direct sunlight (though it is of course, black and white).
Kindles seem to be fine (with respect to sunlight)- other devices need a shade - it can be tricky without one on days where its bright and then cloudy - having devices on the line that stay there seems to help as shooters aren't taking extra boxes etc to the line to try and shelter them.
People using Kindles without a box put them in a plastic bag when its wet - but I find that real hard to read - rain drops on plastic that isn't tight over the screen - tricky - those that use a device with a tight plastic cover fair better.
Jay/Heman - what kindle type are you using...Fclass and some TR prefer screens on the larger side.
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Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
I have a Kindle PaperWhite (and some older models). It's definitely not as user friendly as a tablet or even a phone though - the gesture use is slow to non-existent and typing in URL's is really a pain.
We have 8" Kindle HD's. As Alex says the screens are a little hard to see. The other thing I did notice was if you are wearing polarized sunglasses on the Kindles if you put them flat you can't see them as well as vertical. If we put the tents up it also helps and if its going to be in the upper 70s-90s the tents will be up. The 10" is better but that one sucks the battery real quick. I'm not real happy with the Kindles as they have a tendency to freeze. The ipad/iphones or the Samsung Galaxy tablet/phones done. Jeff H. is using a Samsung tablet and its working really well so we're going to pick a couple of them up to try out.
Sam yes if you come to Atterbury we give you a 32" Kindle while the F-class shooters get an 8" Kindle
The reason the 7 second rule is not mandatory is because not all systems don't have that feature. The SMT I know does not sure if it was NZ or AU that had that rule instated the first year then did away with it. As far as the fear of fast shooting, on a calm day I can shoot fast as I keep the gun in my shoulder. Not uncommon with good pit service that I shoot a 20 round string with sighters in around 15 minutes. Our 3x1000 we had in March had pretty calm winds and I was shooting fast, I really didn't shoot any faster than I would have with good pit pullers. I've noticed sometimes it does take a shot awhile to pop-up. It isn't always instantaneous.
Keith understand what your saying. I think in the end any accuracy issues you may have will be canceled by the gains. For example we have paper targets where the lines are a different thickness I believe they are some of the MR1s we have. Also when pasting targets I've seen people get the paper really soupy and stretch out the X/10 ring a little bit. Not talking 1/2 moa here, but it does stretch a little.
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