How to judge when a press is "worn"?

[trental]

So I have a RCBS RS3 "Reloader Special" and I am questioning its ram alignment. This is one of the aluminum presses. I noticed the other day when resizing that my cases were contacting the front side of the sizing die as the case went in and then leaning backwards slightly as I continued to raise the ram. The case can't slide in the shell holder because it is inserted and pushed all the way in. I looked at it for a minute and then spun my shell holder around so that the opening is facing the back of the press and put in a case from the back. This time I raised the ram slowly and the case still contacted the front side of the die but instead of leaning, the case slid towards the back of the ram in the shell holder. I slid not quite an 1/8" but more than 1/16"... maybe around 3/32". This was consistent.

I've never noticed any concentricity issues. In fact I just converted 200 6.5 Creedmoor cases over to 6mm Creedmoor and they came out dead nuts straight (within .001" on my RCBS casemaster at the case neck and at the ogive).

Tonight I was looking at it and I put a case in without a die and raised the ram. When I look from above I can see that the case is off-center. If I push on the ram it has enough "slop" that it will easily center up. I'm guessing that is why it still loads straight ammo. Have I worn out this old press? I have a JR2 that is probably from the 60s that I can't seem to kill.

Should I send it in to RCBS? I might give them a call on Monday. Not sure if these aluminum presses have bronze bushings that can be replaced or not.

 

[savagedasher]

So I have a RCBS RS3 "Reloader Special" and I am questioning its ram alignment. This is one of the aluminum presses. I noticed the other day when resizing that my cases were contacting the front side of the sizing die as the case went in and then leaning backwards slightly as I continued to raise the ram. The case can't slide in the shell holder because it is inserted and pushed all the way in. I looked at it for a minute and then spun my shell holder around so that the opening is facing the back of the press and put in a case from the back. This time I raised the ram slowly and the case still contacted the front side of the die but instead of leaning, the case slid towards the back of the ram in the shell holder. I slid not quite an 1/8" but more than 1/16"... maybe around 3/32". This was consistent.

I've never noticed any concentricity issues. In fact I just converted 200 6.5 Creedmoor cases over to 6mm Creedmoor and they came out dead nuts straight (within .001" on my RCBS casemaster at the case neck and at the ogive).

Tonight I was looking at it and I put a case in without a die and raised the ram. When I look from above I can see that the case is off-center. If I push on the ram it has enough "slop" that it will easily center up. I'm guessing that is why it still loads straight ammo. Have I worn out this old press? I have a JR2 that is probably from the 60s that I can't seem to kill.

Should I send it in to RCBS? I might give them a call on Monday. Not sure if these aluminum presses have bronze bushings that can be replaced or not.

Many come that way new. If the ram Isn't true to the die holder . Their wore out new or used. Larry

 

[snert]

Go back to the JR. Sell that one cheap to someone who will load for his thurty-thurty...both will be better off

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Let your die do the work. Some precision reloaders i know make even more ram clearance as to not force anything. Your ram should push the case in and withdraw it without any forcing to one side.

 

[savagedasher]

Not only does the ram not line up but the threads aren't straight to the ram. Both isn't un common. Larry

 

[RockyMtnMan]

Worn is good in my opinion. A worn ram can actually help correct any misalignment issues. Same reason why Forster Co-ax press floats the dies. Your perfect runout measurements are a testament to the effect of a worn ram. My RCBS RockChucker has play in the ram from all the years of making ammo and I wouldn't have it any other way

There does come a point where a press can become too worn. Keep it lubricated and as long as it keeps making straight and accurate ammo, keep using it. The runout on an empty sized case neck is not as big of a concern as runout on a loaded round with a seated bullet imo.

 

[Brians356]

There does come a point where a press can become too worn. Keep it lubricated and as long as it keeps making straight and accurate ammo, keep using it.

What a good lube for the ram?

 

[RockyMtnMan]

What a good lube for the ram?

Anything really. It's not a fast moving high friction piece so anything from regular motor oil, to grease, to some PB Blaster will work fine

 

[BoydAllen]

As the others have said, worn is probably better than tight.

Last year I was at a benchrest match, and in the course of a conversation with a long time competitor, the subject of his press came up, the one that I had always seen him load with at matches going back at least 20 years. It is an old, cast iron RCBS JR., modified with the addition of a lighter handle from a Partner press, the lighter weight handle getting around the dropped handle issue and providing a ball, along with lightening the press. Anyway, getting back to the ram wear thing, he said something like, "You know why I use this press?" to which I replied that I did not, at which point he raised the ram, grasped it, and shook it from side to side, causing it to wobble more than I have seen on any press that I have ever used. He went on to say that that he wanted that clearance to allow cases to self align with the die.

Another example that I can think of is a long time and skilled benchrest competitor who lives in Texas, whose family has a business that involves machining. He uses as set of three Partner presses bolted to an aluminum plate for loading at the range (Unlike most in the sport he uses a threaded seating die.) Some time back he mentioned that he turned the rams down on those presses several thousandths for the same reason.

This is not to say that looking at press alignment is not a good idea, just that it is probably less of an issue now that yours has worn, than it would be for the same press when it was new. In fact, in "wearing in" it is likely to have improved.

If you have the itch for a new press, a couple of bullet makers that I know, one who makes very nice carbide bullet making dies, use the Lee Cast Iron Classic presses, because of their excellent alignment. Another bullet maker told me that his die maker told him that the Redding O type presses are good enough to use for making bullets just as they come. And of course there is always the Forster press, that is built to allow cases to align with their dies. The one thing that loose presses are not as good for, at least the Forster, is expanding up quite a ways with a mandrel and die, as we do with .220 Russian to 6mm prior to fire forming to 6PPC. For that m Harrell Combo Press that is tight and very well aligned works the best of all my presses. I have made these determinations by actual testing, and the use of a concentricity gauge.

 

[fguffey]

A video was posted on different reloading forum about 8 years ago; the victim was a Rock Chucker. The video was taken at a Cabala store. The video had the ram coming up without a die meaning the press was not under a load. When the ram got to the top it kicked forward.


The ram kicking forward locked everyone up; it was about that time everyone pilled on; they went off on a tangent. It was about that time I ask if anyone had ever been under a Rock Chucker. All 4 of my Rock Chuckers jam up and go into a bind when the ram is raised. The linkage gets tangled and collides, when that happens the ram kicked back toward the rear at the bottom; the ram being a solid piece has no choice but to be kicked forward at the top. If the Rock Chucker was a cam over press the linkage would not get tangled; the ram would go up stop and then start down again.


No load; all of my presses are designed to be used with a die, shell holder and case.

F. Guffey

 

[LHSmith]

I am with the camp that says let the dies do the work. I go two steps further - I replace the S/H retainer clip with an o-ring AND place an o-ring under the decap rod.

 

[RockyMtnMan]

I am with the camp that says let the dies do the work. I go two steps further - I replace the S/H retainer clip with an o-ring AND place an o-ring under the decap rod.

Yeah I don't use O rings, but I never tighten a decapping rod on a sizer die, especially if I'm using an expander ball. I tighten it all the way down, then back it off a quarter turn so it floats.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by replacing the shell holder retainer clip with an O ring? Could you clarify that a bit more for me? May be something I would like to try. I'm a strong believer in free floating components. Thank you.

 

[LHSmith]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by replacing the shell holder retainer clip with an O ring? Could you clarify that a bit more for me? May be something I would like to try. I'm a strong believer in free floating components. Thank you.

On the Rockchucker and Redding Boss presses a metal clip acting like a external snap ring holds the S/H in place. I remove it and use a loose fitting o-ring to hold the S/H in place.

 

[RockyMtnMan]

On the Rockchucker and Redding Boss presses a metal clip acting like a external snap ring holds the S/H in place. I remove it and use a loose fitting o-ring to hold the S/H in place.

Oh ok. I've never even looked at that part before. Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a shot to see how it works out.

 

[Patch700]

If you want a real eye opener take an off the shelf die and crudely measure the thickness of the walls of the die.. Don't be surprised to see as much as .060" difference ... Combine this with a press that may or may not have it's threads cut true with the centerline of the ram and you can see where this is going.

This is where presses such as the forster co-ax shine or any press that has a lot of slop as they will allow the case to center itself.

As mentioned above I make it a point to remove the factory circlip that retains the shell holder and then ensure the shell holder is turned 90 degrees to where it's inserted. This allows the case to center itself in all directions.

* With respect to people talking about slop in the pins or linkage arms when they do not have a load placed on them , take a case and gently start it into the die.. Now try to feel any slop.. There won't be any for obvious reasons.

 

[LHSmith]

Oh ok. I've never even looked at that part before. Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a shot to see how it works out.

I prefer that method to "float" vs. the o-ring under the die lock ring method. I prefer hard contact with the die and press to maintain repeatable cartridge H/S settings.

 

[RockyMtnMan]

I prefer that method to "float" vs. the o-ring under the die lock ring method. I prefer hard contact with the die and press to maintain repeatable cartridge H/S settings.

Yeah I will never put an O ring under the die lock ring either. Don't like taking the chance of headspace or seating depth being inconsistent if it works loose when I'm not paying attention or the O ring wears down and changes the die depth. I still have one set of LEE dies for my 44 mag, but all the lock rings have been replaced with Forster rings. I always lock my dies down tight in the press with channel lock pliers.

 

[Paddyd]

I think I read somewhere about guys adjusting sizer dies down extra far so the press cams over on the up stroke. They were leaving the dies lock ring loose so the die would float in the slop within the threads to self align.

 

[savagedasher]

Yeah I will never put an O ring under the die lock ring either. Don't like taking the chance of headspace or seating depth being inconsistent if it works loose when I'm not paying attention or the O ring wears down and changes the die depth. I still have one set of LEE dies for my 44 mag, but all the lock rings have been replaced with Forster rings. I always lock my dies down tight in the press with channel lock pliers.

A wore out press to me is one that the ram and the die threads aren't perfectly in line . New or used . Larry

 

[trental]

Thanks for all the thoughts gentlemen. Definitely gives me some food for thought as well. I think that maybe some of you are right about the "slop" actually providing "float" and is contributing to straight/concentric loaded cartridges. I have been measuring ammo as it comes out and this thing loads very true ammo... maybe I should just let that be my answer. Until that changes I think I should just be happy with it.