Hello- new here and to reloading. A couple questions:

[SigSavage]

I am brand new to reloading and this whole case "sizing" thing has me stumped. I have just been following the directions that came with my dies for set up (turn die down until it touches shell holder then back off a little bit), putting the brass in, and then pulling the lever down. I had an idea what the process was doing, but didn't fully understand all the different pieces of the process.

So, I'd like to please clarify a couple things so that I will do the correct process in the future:

1) get a headspace gauge. This will tell me what the length of my chamber is by measuring the fired, unsized cartridge to within about .003" due to spring back. A once fired "new" piece of brass should be used for this because it hasn't undergone all the stretching of multiple firings.

2) get a neck sizing die to just reform the neck of the case only so I can get the bullet in for seating. Neck sizing increases case life.

3) every fifth reloading of a case, use my full length sizing die. This makes sure the case is not getting stretched too far out of whack where it will have trouble fitting in the chamber.

4) use a blowtorch and anneal the cartridge neck every fifth reloading to increase case life. Do this before sizing.



Now, how do I use the info I get from the headspace gauge? When do I know if my cartridge needs to have its shoulder bumped back? Do I just go by the general feel of when I chamber the cartridge before shooting? If it is difficult to chamber do I assume it is because the shoulder is too far forward? Do I then measure the length of that cartridge using my headspace gauge? If it is too long then I need to bump the shoulder?

Also, when using the headspace gauge is it safe to assume that the brass measurement is an accurate representation of the gun's actual headspace as long as the cartridge can be chambered easily? Do I need to also do this test I've read about people removing the firing pin from their bolt and letting it fall into place, and if it goes 2/3 of the way on its own then the cartridge is the correct size?

Last, when it comes time to bump the shoulder back, how do I know how much more to screw the die down? Once it hits the shell holder and cannot go any further and it is not bumping the shoulder, what then? Or is this actually an issue? Do FL dies generally over-bump the case, requiring a person to actually back off the die and screw it out? If you are doing this, how do you know how much to back it off? Is it by trial and error using multiple cases? I have heard of these Redding shell holders that are thinner than normal that you use in sequence until you get the correct cartridge base to shoulder measurement. I don't understand how this works, as you are taking the case further away from the die and therefore pushing the shoulder back less and less.


Thanks for any help.

 

[bheadboy]

if you don't have dial indictor get one, hornaday makes a gage package that allows you to measure from the base of the case to a point on the shoulder. (considered the oal) then adjust the die to move the shoulder back .002/3 and you have the oal adjusted to the chamber using a fired case.

I personally never use a neck die, I just back off the fl die 1/4 turn after setting the oal as desired.

Bob

 

[SigSavage]

Thanks for your insight Bob. I already have Redding competition dies, but the FL sizer is not the one with the micrometer on it unfortunately. I'd rather not have to buy yet another FL die.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You dont need a micrometer sizing die. If you have a decent fl die itll do all you need it to do

 

[LHSmith]

Yes remove the FP ass'y. Once you have a case that has been fully Fireformed AND NO PRIMER you will get resistance on bolt close. This means the shoulder is hitting the chamber, back the die out an extra 1/2 turn from what the instructions say and in very small increments turn the die down little by little until you "just" get the bolt to just drop completely under it's own weight- this will be about 0.002 H/S clearance. If you want 0.001" then adjust until the bolt falls ~3/4- 2/3 down. For all but full blown BR comp. 0.002 will suffice. Record this number for your records. Make sure you use the same shoulder gauge every time.If you are getting resistance on bolt lift w/ a click- you have the wrong die or loaded too hot.
IMHO, sell the micro die and get a FL die.....it will save alot of problems. The micro die will sell for a good price on this site.

 

[LHSmith]

I would use a decent calipers and either Sinclair's H/S gauges or Hornady's set.Unless your chamber was cut too deep, the stock dies and shell holders should allow you to bump. If not, yes you may have to take some off the TOP of the S/H (in which case, mark it so you know it was altered so you can make corrections to any other dies that have been pre-set using that S/H. Do not get the Comp.S/H's to fix THIS problem.....they are thicker!
On the annealing, depends what type of gun and cartridge....the benefit might not realized on some factory guns.
Points to remember, not every pc. of brass will workharden at the same rate as others ....even from the same box, fired the same # of times, even using the same loads. You should still however keep the cases batched as to # of firings.

 

[SigSavage]

Thanks all, I should clarify a couple things. I have a regular Redding FL die, without the micrometer. Also I was under the misunderstanding the Redding shell holders were thinner than regular ones. Apparently they are thicker, to allow bumping. I think I was confused over reading about some people having to actually shave down their shell holders for some reason.

So, do I do the test in the chamber to see the bolt drop before or after FL sizing?

 

[Webster]

I am brand new to reloading and this whole case "sizing" thing has me stumped. I have just been following the directions that came with my dies for set up (turn die down until it touches shell holder then back off a little bit), putting the brass in, and then pulling the lever down. I had an idea what the process was doing, but didn't fully understand all the different pieces of the process.

So, I'd like to please clarify a couple things so that I will do the correct process in the future:

1) get a headspace gauge. This will tell me what the length of my chamber is by measuring the fired, unsized cartridge to within about .003" due to spring back. A once fired "new" piece of brass should be used for this because it hasn't undergone all the stretching of multiple firings.

2) get a neck sizing die to just reform the neck of the case only so I can get the bullet in for seating. Neck sizing increases case life.

3) every fifth reloading of a case, use my full length sizing die. This makes sure the case is not getting stretched too far out of whack where it will have trouble fitting in the chamber.

4) use a blowtorch and anneal the cartridge neck every fifth reloading to increase case life. Do this before sizing.



Now, how do I use the info I get from the headspace gauge? When do I know if my cartridge needs to have its shoulder bumped back? Do I just go by the general feel of when I chamber the cartridge before shooting? If it is difficult to chamber do I assume it is because the shoulder is too far forward? Do I then measure the length of that cartridge using my headspace gauge? If it is too long then I need to bump the shoulder?

Also, when using the headspace gauge is it safe to assume that the brass measurement is an accurate representation of the gun's actual headspace as long as the cartridge can be chambered easily? Do I need to also do this test I've read about people removing the firing pin from their bolt and letting it fall into place, and if it goes 2/3 of the way on its own then the cartridge is the correct size?

Last, when it comes time to bump the shoulder back, how do I know how much more to screw the die down? Once it hits the shell holder and cannot go any further and it is not bumping the shoulder, what then? Or is this actually an issue? Do FL dies generally over-bump the case, requiring a person to actually back off the die and screw it out? If you are doing this, how do you know how much to back it off? Is it by trial and error using multiple cases? I have heard of these Redding shell holders that are thinner than normal that you use in sequence until you get the correct cartridge base to shoulder measurement. I don't understand how this works, as you are taking the case further away from the die and therefore pushing the shoulder back less and less.


Thanks for any help.

If it isn't a competition rifle you don't really need to measure chamber length, shoulder set back or head space. It's very unlikely a case is to long for the chamber. Just trim to published length. As long as the bolt closes easily on an fired empty case there isn't any problem. I adjust my die for a 6BR varmint rifle by Tony Boyers method. It cost nothing. You take the firing pin assembly out of the bolt so you can feel the true pressure to close the bolt on the case. Back your die out a little, size a case and put it in the rifle. If the bolt handle doesn't fall half way down with close to zero finger pressure, screw the die down a tiny amount and size another case. Keep doing this until the bolt handle falls half way down just barley touching it and slight pressure with one finger closes the bolt. I like the method because the determination is used by some of the best shooters in the country. The proper die setting is determined directly with your bolt face and chamber. No gauges required. You need to take the bolt apart at least once a year anyhow for cleaning.

You need to remember that a lot of people on this website are shooting $5000+ rifles in national competition. You never know if your talking to a deer hunter or a national champion.They are not shooting factory rifles. If your shooting a $700-1200 factory 222 at varmints a lot of the techniques you see on this website won't help your accuracy.

 

[INShooter]

Once you have your die set to only size .002 or .003, I would suggest FL sizing after each firing.

 

[dkhunt14]

Find somebody close by to mentor you. Get a good reloading manual. Speer is a good one. Matt

 

[LHSmith]

So, do I do the test in the chamber to see the bolt drop before or after FL sizing?

It may take two firings until the case fully forms to your chamber....however try the case after the first firing w/ the FP ass'y out, if no resistance measure the base to shoulder, set the die until it 'just" starts setting back the shoulder, load and fire again...now you should be getting some resistance with the stripped bolt and re-adjust the die until the bolt "just" falls all the way with no resistance.....work to this point in small steps. Again full drop will yield ~ 0.002" which should be good for your application. Initially your measuring to determine movement (setback), not necessarily to a specific number.

 

[Fotheringill]

Thanks for your insight Bob. I already have Redding competition dies, but the FL sizer is not the one with the micrometer on it unfortunately. I'd rather not have to buy yet another FL die.

Call Redding or Sinclair's. I know they sell micrometer stems separately for the Redding dies and are probably interchangeable from one die to the other. You can save some money.

 

[1newmexkid]

It may take two firings until the case fully forms to your chamber....however try the case after the first firing w/ the FP ass'y out, if no resistance measure the base to shoulder, set the die until it 'just" starts setting back the shoulder, load and fire again...now you should be getting some resistance with the stripped bolt and re-adjust the die until the bolt "just" falls all the way with no resistance.....work to this point in small steps. Again full drop will yield ~ 0.002" which should be good for your application. Initially your measuring to determine movement (setback), not necessarily to a specific number.

PM sent

 

[SigSavage]

It may take two firings until the case fully forms to your chamber....however try the case after the first firing w/ the FP ass'y out, if no resistance measure the base to shoulder, set the die until it 'just" starts setting back the shoulder, load and fire again...now you should be getting some resistance with the stripped bolt and re-adjust the die until the bolt "just" falls all the way with no resistance.....work to this point in small steps. Again full drop will yield ~ 0.002" which should be good for your application. Initially your measuring to determine movement (setback), not necessarily to a specific number.

I just want to make sure I'm getting this right. So I do this test after firing and before sizing. Possibly need to fire twice to ensure the case has fully expanded to the chamber dimensions. So, with an *unsized freshly fired case* if the bolt doesn't drop at all with the firing pin out, I need to bump the shoulder back when I FL size in increments of turning the die down until the bolt drops 1/2 to 2/3 on its own when I put the case in the chamber. This is assuming that I can get adequate shoulder bump before I hit the shell case, or if I have the Redding fat shell holders.

If the bolt drops on its own about 1/2 to 2/3 the way down then this is the "correct" length that indicates about 0.001" of headspace and I should use a headspace guage to measure the case and use that as a reference in the future when sizing my cases. If the bolt *just* drops the whole way without any help, I have about 0.002" and this is also acceptable to use as a measurement.

I can see how this process is easier with a case that has had multiple firings and is too long because I can just FL size it down to where it needs to be to fit the chamber with correct resistance. But when finding the desired case length initially, it will not be too long after 1st/2nd firings and therefore I need to do the following:

If the freshly fired case is *not* too long and the bolt drops easily (assuming it is fully stretched and represents the chamber dimensions) I need to back off on my die so that the shoulder is not touched (no appreciable bumping) when reloading for the next firing. After that firing, the shoulder should be forward a bit more than last time and should therefore offer some resistance to the bolt dropping. Depending on how much it drops, I now screw the die down in increments like I did if the case was initially too long.

How do I know where to position the die so that it is only just starting to bump the shoulder?

 

[LHSmith]

Initially-Follow the instructions that came with the die-S/H touching the die and back off 1/4 turn (this may be excessive back-off but ensures you do not begin bumping at first attempt)measure case (base to shoulder) insert lubed case -then lower the die incrementally until you just get a smaller reading on the caliper(hopefully only 0.001" less)- this signifies shoulder contact and slight bump.

 

[dkhunt14]

Watch Alex Wheelers new video he posted on here. called Sizing Shoulder setback 101. Matt

 

[LHSmith]

SigSavage- PM me if questions remain after the above vid and my answer.

 

[SigSavage]

Initially-Follow the instructions that came with the die-S/H touching the die and back off 1/4 turn (this may be excessive back-off but ensures you do not begin bumping at first attempt)measure case (base to shoulder) insert lubed case -then lower the die incrementally until you just get a smaller reading on the caliper(hopefully only 0.001" less)- this signifies shoulder contact and slight bump.

OK that makes sense- thanks.

dkhunt14 Thanks for pointing me to that video. It helps a lot. I'm definitely more a visual learner.

 

[SigSavage]

So the way I understand it then, neck sizing is done simply to extend case life. I am looking at the Redding neck dies. I do not believe I need the competition die with the micrometer, as that is for only partial neck sizing and I don't see me going down that road. That would leave the regular neck die with or without the bushings. What benefit would I get from the more expensive one with the bushings?

 

[LHSmith]

That is a fallacy that NS extends brass life. Bushing dies allow you to adjust neck tension. For your factory Tikka I would stick with the standard FL die. It is also untrue that NS yields better accuracy. With mid to full power loads, you will eventually have to FLS....but the case will now resist being sized and eventually get too big at the base.