Ultra heavy 224 bullets

[mao0720]

Given the velocity that seams easily achievable with the berger and sierra 90gr bullets in a modern 223 rem match rifle with a long barrel, that is 2800-2900 fps, is there any traction to an even heavier 224 cal match bullet say 100gr? I honestly don't know enough about bullet design to have an educated opinion, but it seems like a 95 or 100gr bullet would work well.

 

[Bryan Litz Ballistics]

Very unlikely to see anything heavier than 90 grains. 90 grains is already very extreme for .224 caliber.

-Bryan

 

[raptor1ronin]

Very unlikely to see anything heavier than 90 grains. 90 grains is already very extreme for .224 caliber.

-Bryan

What about a Hybrid Bullet Brian, Like a 85 or 90 Hybrid ?

 

[Bryan Litz Ballistics]

What about a Hybrid Bullet Brian, Like a 85 or 90 Hybrid ?

Yes that will happen someday. Nothing started at this time though so it will be a while.

-Bryan

 

[mao0720]

Forgive my ignorance but what is the limiting factor for stepping up in weight? The rudimentary way that I look at this is that the 223 rem and 308 win cases have very similar design characteristics just a significant size difference. So if a 90gr VLD can be pushed from a 223 at 2800-2900 FPS and a 175gr bullet can do the same from a 308 then they should be about equals. If that is the case then there is, again, in my basic level of thinking, room to grow the 223 bullet to gain some ballistic advantage, much like the 200 and 215gr bullets for 308 that are only moving around 2550-2650 FPS.

 

[CJ6]

Twist rates would be getting pretty fast (7-7.5 w/ 90's)with bullets heavier(longer) than the 90's I would think.

 

[mao0720]

1-6 twist rates are pretty common in 224 barrels now, even for the 90gr bullets

 

[MClark]

My boss is a big fan of the 22/30-06 AI. He even took it to Africa for plains game.
Heck of a lot more gun than a 223.
He is always looking for heavier bullets, is using 90's now. He recently found a small manufacturer making monolithics who said he would make 100-110 grain.
We will see if it really happens.
Will find name of manufacture.

Mark

 

[GotRDid]

I actually have approx 180 .224 dia bullets from the now defunct company Lock, Stock & Barrel that weigh 100 grains. They are soft point configuration and resemble the "barrier blind" bullets developed by Hornady at the time.
L,S & B used to be the clearing house for cosmetic seconds from Hornady back then, and my guess is that they indeed are from an experimental run.
I will dig them out for dimensions and post images ( if I can figure out how to upload them from my phone).
They are a flat base design with a cannelure for crimping.
GotRDid.

 

[GotRDid]

OK, found them, and there are 259 remaining from the 300 I purchased in 2002. My images are too large for uploading, so until I figure that out, the length of the bullets are a nominal 1.155". Weights are fairly consistent varying only +/- .2 grains for the sample I tried.
If anyone is interested in attempting to reduce an image or two for posting here, I know I can text them to another smart phone.
If memory serves me correctly, Precision Shooting Magazine did a report on a company building bullets with a compressed tungsten powder core that afforded an 80 gr weight bullet but at the length of a traditional 69 gr SMK. Stability in more traditional twist barrels was good I believe.
GotRDid.

 

[XTR]

Much longer and we'd have to call them quarrels.

From a practical standpoint the OP's initial velocity is at the edge of what most people can get with the 90s, at least with what you might consider sane brass life. Above 2800s from a 30" barrel with 90s puts folks in the 5 or fewer reloads range, push it up to 2900 and brass becomes single use. For a lot of folks even 5 is fewer than they are willing to go.

I think the limiting factor in the end is case capacity, the 223 is a small case. We could surely get 1:6 barrels made, but at that point you are designing a bullet specifically for F-TR to try to run against the 308s, it really has no other purpose. In fact, the only reason to make it would be to run the 223 at ranges longer than 600 because hooting at 600 and shorter the 90s shoot about as well as any other bullet out there in F-TR, on paper and on the line. If you are designing a bullet for shooting 800-1000 with the 223 then you need to look at what is being used in the 308s and figure out what it will take to match it.

Now in practical terms, take a look at say a 100gr or a 105gr 223, just how much BC would it have to gain to run with a 200 or a 215 hybrid, and keep in mind that you are probably going to lose 100 FPS or more in practical muzzle velocity. You can add some to the nose and tail, but the longer the tail the more it intrudes into the case.

Bryan knows and understand far more than I, so I'd differ to him in the end, but I'm thinking his comment to the effect that "it isn't happening" is based on at least some of the above.

 

[raptor1ronin]

I vote for a 87 grain or 85 grain Hybrid

 

[wolley]

At some point friction from the extreme bearing surface will negate the additional weight and I'm thinking the 90g is already pushing that envelope.

 

[XTR]

I sort of lost my way in the post above but the point of that third paragraph in the post above was to say that you were probably going to have to add bearing surface which was going to limit your ability to get enough MV to make this hypothetical bullet work in relation to the bullets it would be designed to compete against.

 

[xring]

I actually have approx 180 .224 dia bullets from the now defunct company Lock, Stock & Barrel that weigh 100 grains. They are soft point configuration and resemble the "barrier blind" bullets developed by Hornady at the time.
L,S & B used to be the clearing house for cosmetic seconds from Hornady back then, and my guess is that they indeed are from an experimental run.
I will dig them out for dimensions and post images ( if I can figure out how to upload them from my phone).
They are a flat base design with a cannelure for crimping.
GotRDid.

I have one of those "heavies" somewhere . I got it from the very large gentleman in the front office.... who ran/owned (?) Lock, Stock & Barrel many years ago . I was told it was made by Hornady and that those Bullets were ( in the future ) all going to the Military . Sorry if I'm a little O.T. , but LS&B was my favorite Store to go through . Most of the Sales were by Mail , but if you showed up , they let you walk their Distribution Center Aisles and pick out from their tremendous inventory . They always seemed to be busy , and I often wonder how in the world .... they went bust .

 

[jsthntn247]

If you could get a .224 bullet with a G7 of .320 (200 Hybrid, 210 LRBT) you would only need to push them 2650 to 2700 to get identical results to the heavies in a 308 without all the recoil. You could get that speed easily with H4350 and the right freebore with no pressure and infinite barrel life.

 

[daniel brothers]

my 22-243 AI easily pushes 90 vld bergers at 3400 fps... it's accurate and brass life is very good, because of using the slowest powder possible, yet obtaining the desired fps... Retumbo.

Personally... I don't see a need to go to anything heavier.

The difference between my 90's at 3400... and my 80 amaxes at 3558... ONLY show up at longer ranges past 700 yds.

100 gr bullets would have a better BC, but it's advantage would only show up way out there.

How often are you going to do that... but I guess you all talking about target shooting...right?

 

[mao0720]

At those high velocities I can absolutely believe the differences are only more noticeable at longer range. However, anyone shooting .224 "heavies" at lower velocities out of a standard .223 Rem will see a marked difference between 80s and 90s much closer in. For example, at 600 yd, a 90 VLD at 2850 fps will shoot inside an 80 VLD at 3000 fps by almost 3/4 MOA in a full value 10 mph wind (3.6 MOA vs 4.3 MOA, JBM Ballistics). That would likely be worth quite a few points in an F-TR MR match if the conditions were windy. I can certainly understand the desire for an even higher BC .224 bullet than the 90 VLD for F-TR or High Power shooters. The real question is whether a heavier bullet could be designed that would actually fulfill that requirement (i.e. are the specs of the 90 VLD in terms of weight, bearing surface length, BC, ease of loading, etc., already so close to optimal for that caliber that little improvement could be obtained with a newer design?). I'd certainly love to give a potentially improved bullet design a try if one ever became available.

I couldn't have said it better.

 

[r bose]

Sierra is now pointing their 90g bullets and advertising a 563 BC. If you can get 2850 FPS with them, that's going to put you in a very competitive position against anyone shooting a 308 with the heavy (200-215g) bullets. I haven't run the numbers but I can't imagine needing a heavier bullet.

 

[raptor1ronin]

Sierra is now pointing their 90g bullets and advertising a 563 BC. If you can get 2850 FPS with them, that's going to put you in a very competitive position against anyone shooting a 308 with the heavy (200-215g) bullets. I haven't run the numbers but I can't imagine needing a heavier bullet.

I will know for sure tomorrow. I will take a picture of my 90VLD Pointed VS a SMK 90 Stock and will see the difference.