AD FX 120i vs Satorius Entris 64-1s

[ChristCross]

Looking to upgrade my reloading scale big time.Need input on both, does anybody have both of them and load data to support your views.

 

[Comrade Terry]

I can't help you with your specific request, but if you decide to go with the FX-120i get it here: http://cambridgeenviro.com/index.php

I ordered one yesterday, and got it for $575 CAD which was $475.29 US. That includes shipping.

 

[nhm16]

I have an A&D FX-120i (which I also got from Cambridge Enviro for less than $500 shipped to my door). I love it. It's not any more accurate than my prior GemPro 250, but it's stable and doesn't drift, and that alone has sped up my reloading considerably.

With respect to the Sartorius, for double the price you get:

• A much nicer draft shield setup, and
• A more sensitive balance (0.002gn for the Sartorius vs. 0.02gn for the A&D), but most stick powders used for long range shooting weigh around 0.02-0.04gn per kernel, so I'm not sure the extra sensitivity buys you anything

Don't forget to figure in the cost of a Class 1 calibration weight for either.

 

[bsumoba]

I am actually getting my AD FX120i in the mail today. The price for the FX120i has been steadily increasing in price.

I am not sure if the 0.002 gr will get you any benefit as I believe that 0.02gr is sufficient.

I think the big thing is if you have the money, get the Satorius. If you need to somewhat watch the pennies, then the FX120i is my pick. With the extra 500-600 dollars, I can get a lot of other stuff like new barrels, more reloading components, or be almost halfway to paying for another custom action

 

[nhm16]

I am not sure if the 0.002 gr will get you any benefit as I believe that 0.02gr is sufficient.

I think the big thing is if you have the money, get the Satorius. If you need to somewhat watch the pennies, then the FX120i is my pick. With the extra 500-600 dollars, I can get a lot of other stuff like new barrels, more reloading components, or be almost halfway to paying for another custom action

Agreed on both points. Would I have preferred a Sartorius? Heck yeah. However, nothing wrong with my A&D, in fact I've been delighted with it, and the price difference gets me a Giraud trimmer, which is a better use of that $5-600.

 

[rox]

does anybody have both of them and load data to support your views.

Almost. I have 2 FX-120i scales and a Denver analytical balance (0.1mg/0.002 grain, equivalent to the Sartorius). I use the FX-120i balances for loading. I use the analytical balance for analysis & research, and testing/verifying other balances and their variance. Loading on a 4dp balance would be frustrating and add no benefit, as far as my experience goes.

..

 

[nhm16]

I have heard of people with 0.1mg balances cutting kernels of powder to get their powder throws dead-on. That seems like overkill. Shades of this April's Fool Daily Bulletin Post.

 

[ChristCross]

does anybody have both of them and load data to support your views.

Almost. I have 2 FX-120i scales and a Denver analytical balance (0.1mg/0.002 grain, equivalent to the Sartorius). I use the FX-120i balances for loading. I use the analytical balance for analysis & research, and testing/verifying other balances and their variance. Loading on a 4dp balance would be frustrating and add no benefit, as far as my experience goes.

..

Thanks for the input. Have you done test loads with both scales to see what your ES and SD with both scales over a chronograph would be?

 

[snakepit]

Don't forget to figure in the cost of a Class 1 calibration weight for either.

There was a similar thread once where a person posted that it was not necessary to have an expensive Class 1 calibration weight when it comes to reloading because we are weighing to find the amount of powder to give us the best grouping and once we find the best load then to be able to repeat that measurement each time. We just have to be sure we use that same calibration weight each time we calibrate the scale. About that time I happened to purchase a FX 120i so I just use an inexpensive 100 gram weight I already had for calibrating the scale with no problems.

 

[Patch700]

Unless you somehow plan on selling pre weighed charges to someone and it had to be a registered weight then I highly doubt you would need a class 1 calibration weight lol.

A proper inert test P or calibration weight within the ranges of your scale are all that's needed , 50 or 100 grams is 50 or 100 grams anyway you slice it.

This is why most legal for trade test weights also have a hard chrome finish as it is very hard to erode the finish which if allowed to erode would obviously not be accurate over time.

 

[Joe R]

bsumoba said:

I think the big thing is if you have the money, get the Sartorius. If you need to somewhat watch the pennies, then the FX120i is my pick.

+1

I'm a newbie, so you need to consider that. I've had the Sartorius Entris 64-1s for a few months now and it is well worth it to me. But there many excellent (way better shooters than me) at my range that use the FX 120i and they don't seem to be handicapped by it. There are also many excellent shooters (including our very own Erik Cortina) using the Sartorius scale and doing very well with them. It really comes down to how tight money is for you or how important is accuracy to you.

 

[bsumoba]

I messed around with the FX 120i last night...My first impressions were that it was bigger than I had expected. Coming from a GemPro 250, I expected something slightly larger than this, but it was almost near the same size as the one I have in my company's stockroom, which is a Satorius and it is a $2K+ industrial/research model. I leveled the unit on my table, made sure there were no drafts even though there are shields provided with the unit, and I left the unit on for an hour, which is 1/2 hour longer than what the manual says to let it warm up.

I borrowed the stockroom Satorius (do not remember the model) that measures 0.002 gr (0.0001g) accuracy and is also calibrated every year. This is used for counting itty bitty parts which I borrowed from work to do this test.

I took all my weights that I have gotten over the years from various scales and measured them on the Satorius. Not to my surprise, all of them weighed in at exactly 20.0000 grams and 50.0000 grams. Who needs a Class-1 weight

I then took (2) of the 50 gram weights and used these to calibrate the FX120i. Finished that and then took a 20gr cal weight and put it on the FX120i. It measured at exactly 20.000 grams. Took an individual 50 gram weight and it measured exactly as well. That was refreshing! ;D

Just for good measure, I took the weights and put them on the Satorius, same thing.

Okay, now I switched to grains on both units, the Satorius and FX120i and used a chargemaster to measure out 56.8 grains of H4831SC. Put this on the Satorius and got 56.826 grains. I removed a kernel to get it to try to get it to exactly 56.800 grains. I could not get it to this number and ended up with 56.804 grains. I suspected if I searched for a "larger" kernel I could get it to exactly 56.800 grains.

Now, I put the 56.804 grain charge onto the FX120i and the unit measured exactly 56.80 grains.

Just to see how the unit would measure a charge, say 56.808 grains on the Satorius, I managed to remove a kernel, added a larger one and finally got it to 56.808 grains. I thought to myself, what a pain! If I was anal enough to want exactly 56.800 grains, that would take a lot of effort!

I took the 56.808 grain charge and put it on the FX120i and I got 56.80 grains. Okay, that is what I expected. I took off the charge, waited a few seconds, and put it back on the scale and it measure 56.80 grains. So it looks like it is stable.

I then changed the charge to 56.812 grains and put it on the FX and got 56.80 grains.

And lastly, I changed the weight to 56.818 grains and sure enough, it measured 56.82 grains.

Keep in mind, for me to get these weights on the Satorius, I had to remove what looked like slightly smaller kernels and add slightly larger ones. If someone is really doing this in real life, I can only imagine that it takes them FOREVER to get a precise 56.800 grain charge.

So what did I get out of this experiment....the preciseness of 0.02 grains is enough for me. There are just too many other variables that affect ES/SD in ammunition like brass, primer and bullet consistency, neck tension, etc. that to worry about kernel sizes to get a precise dead nuts reading of 56.800 grains on a $2K plus unit is probably overkill. The 0.02 grain was enough precision to get all my charges to within 1 kernel, maybe 2 small kernels max from each other.

Now, does that mean I will not upgrade to a scale with 0.002 grain precision? NO! If I had the money, I would still get more precision. Whether or not I will care if it is 56.808 grains or not is something I have not thought about since I am not using a scale with this type of precision. If I did, and say I had my stockroom's Satorius as my scale, I think I would put a range of 56.798 to 56.808 or something similar and call it good.

 

[Dshooter]

For the money, get the FX120i hands down. .02 gn of accuracy is more than over kill. I have one and love it. I would never spend double the money to cut kernels of powder. I kernel of stick powder wieghs .025-.03. A kernel of ball powder is around .01-.015. You'll NEVER shoot the difference in 2 kernels of stick powder let alone trying to get the scale accuracy of half a kernel. Spend your extra cash on the already inflated components....
As for drift, haven't had a bit of trouble and had mine a year now with probably 2000 loads or more on it

 

[ChristCross]

I messed around with the FX 120i last night...My first impressions were that it was bigger than I had expected. Coming from a GemPro 250, I expected something slightly larger than this, but it was almost near the same size as the one I have in my company's stockroom, which is a Satorius and it is a $2K+ industrial/research model. I leveled the unit on my table, made sure there were no drafts even though there are shields provided with the unit, and I left the unit on for an hour, which is 1/2 hour longer than what the manual says to let it warm up.

I borrowed the stockroom Satorius (do not remember the model) that measures 0.002 gr (0.0001g) accuracy and is also calibrated every year. This is used for counting itty bitty parts which I borrowed from work to do this test.

I took all my weights that I have gotten over the years from various scales and measured them on the Satorius. Not to my surprise, all of them weighed in at exactly 20.0000 grams and 50.0000 grams. Who needs a Class-1 weight

I then took (2) of the 50 gram weights and used these to calibrate the FX120i. Finished that and then took a 20gr cal weight and put it on the FX120i. It measured at exactly 20.000 grams. Took an individual 50 gram weight and it measured exactly as well. That was refreshing! ;D

Just for good measure, I took the weights and put them on the Satorius, same thing.

Okay, now I switched to grains on both units, the Satorius and FX120i and used a chargemaster to measure out 56.8 grains of H4831SC. Put this on the Satorius and got 56.826 grains. I removed a kernel to get it to try to get it to exactly 56.800 grains. I could not get it to this number and ended up with 56.804 grains. I suspected if I searched for a "larger" kernel I could get it to exactly 56.800 grains.

Now, I put the 56.804 grain charge onto the FX120i and the unit measured exactly 56.80 grains.

Just to see how the unit would measure a charge, say 56.808 grains on the Satorius, I managed to remove a kernel, added a larger one and finally got it to 56.808 grains. I thought to myself, what a pain! If I was anal enough to want exactly 56.800 grains, that would take a lot of effort!

I took the 56.808 grain charge and put it on the FX120i and I got 56.80 grains. Okay, that is what I expected. I took off the charge, waited a few seconds, and put it back on the scale and it measure 56.80 grains. So it looks like it is stable.

I then changed the charge to 56.812 grains and put it on the FX and got 56.80 grains.

And lastly, I changed the weight to 56.818 grains and sure enough, it measured 56.82 grains.

Keep in mind, for me to get these weights on the Satorius, I had to remove what looked like slightly smaller kernels and add slightly larger ones. If someone is really doing this in real life, I can only imagine that it takes them FOREVER to get a precise 56.800 grain charge.

So what did I get out of this experiment....the preciseness of 0.02 grains is enough for me. There are just too many other variables that affect ES/SD in ammunition like brass, primer and bullet consistency, neck tension, etc. that to worry about kernel sizes to get a precise dead nuts reading of 56.800 grains on a $2K plus unit is probably overkill. The 0.02 grain was enough precision to get all my charges to within 1 kernel, maybe 2 small kernels max from each other.

Now, does that mean I will not upgrade to a scale with 0.002 grain precision? NO! If I had the money, I would still get more precision. Whether or not I will care if it is 56.808 grains or not is something I have not thought about since I am not using a scale with this type of precision. If I did, and say I had my stockroom's Satorius as my scale, I think I would put a range of 56.798 to 56.808 or something similar and call it good.

Thanks you bsumoba for taking the time to do this experament with both scales. It has save me time and money to find out which one to use. I have used a RCBS 10-10 for years and got fustrated with it. When I load a 100rd and reset the scale it would be high or low from center line and would have to rezero it for the next 100rds. This is part of my plan to upgrade my reloading process. I have friend who is looking to reloading and is willing to share in the cost of getting a scale. I will talk to him to see which way we will go.

 

[nhm16]

Thanks you bsumoba for taking the time to do this experament with both scales. It has save me time and money to find out which one to use. I have used a RCBS 10-10 for years and got fustrated with it. When I load a 100rd and reset the scale it would be high or low from center line and would have to rezero it for the next 100rds. This is part of my plan to upgrade my reloading process. I have friend who is looking to reloading and is willing to share in the cost of getting a scale. I will talk to him to see which way we will go.

The fact that you don't have to constantly keep an eye on and/or recalibrate a balance is a huge factor in speeding up your reloading. I load about 75-80 rounds for a 60 shot F-Class match, and have a pretty standard process down, and just by going from a GemPro to a A&D cut my reloading time by about a third because I didn't have to worry about the balance drifting.

 

[flatlander]

Dittos on all the positive comments on the A&D Fx-120i. I've been using mine for over a year, and feel it's the last step before I'd take the plunge and get a Prometheus. Started reloading in '68 with a Redding #3 measure & scale, eventually worked my way up through a Dillon digital, DI MXX-123, Lyman 1200DPS, RCBS Chargemaster, and finally, the Fx-120i. The A&D balance is far superior to anything else I've used - I'd keep it even if I dropped $3200 on Brand's little jewel (will order a couple of them, right after I hit a powerball jackpot).

 

[ChristCross]

Thanks you bsumoba for taking the time to do this experament with both scales. It has save me time and money to find out which one to use. I have used a RCBS 10-10 for years and got fustrated with it. When I load a 100rd and reset the scale it would be high or low from center line and would have to rezero it for the next 100rds. This is part of my plan to upgrade my reloading process. I have friend who is looking to reloading and is willing to share in the cost of getting a scale. I will talk to him to see which way we will go.

The fact that you don't have to constantly keep an eye on and/or recalibrate a balance is a huge factor in speeding up your reloading. I load about 75-80 rounds for a 60 shot F-Class match, and have a pretty standard process down, and just by going from a GemPro to a A&D cut my reloading time by about a third because I didn't have to worry about the balance drifting.

Did you loads get more consistent with the A&D and where your results measurable in your eyes. Going to make a decision this week keep the arguments for both fellow shooters

 

[nhm16]

Thanks you bsumoba for taking the time to do this experament with both scales. It has save me time and money to find out which one to use. I have used a RCBS 10-10 for years and got fustrated with it. When I load a 100rd and reset the scale it would be high or low from center line and would have to rezero it for the next 100rds. This is part of my plan to upgrade my reloading process. I have friend who is looking to reloading and is willing to share in the cost of getting a scale. I will talk to him to see which way we will go.

The fact that you don't have to constantly keep an eye on and/or recalibrate a balance is a huge factor in speeding up your reloading. I load about 75-80 rounds for a 60 shot F-Class match, and have a pretty standard process down, and just by going from a GemPro to a A&D cut my reloading time by about a third because I didn't have to worry about the balance drifting.

Did you loads get more consistent with the A&D and where your results measurable in your eyes. Going to make a decision this week keep the arguments for both fellow shooters

I couldn't said it improved my scores but it definitely saves time. The GemPro (and the Acculab VIC-123 before it) wasn't inaccurate. It just required lots of babysitting.

 

[zipollini]

I have the Sartorius Entris 64-1S and the Omega II trickler. Have had it for a few months. Love it and would buy it again in a heartbeat. I switched from a Chargemaster 1500 to the Sartorius and my SD and ES were cut in half immediately. Both my SD and ES are now in the low single digit range for my 6XC and H3450 loads.

Here is a nice video in case you haven't seen it yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr1Wso6P9ZI

 

[ChristCross]

I am going with Satorius Entris 64-1s. Sold some shooting equipment that been sitting for awhile and have no plans for.I plan on sending my american made 10-10 scale in to Scott Parker to get it tuned up as a good back up. 8)