223AI for PD's - Ideal twist rate?

[IA_shooter]

I'm trying to decided what twist rate I would want for my ultimate Prairie Dog (for me anyway) rifle build I plan on doing. I want this rifle to be able to handle 500+ yd shooting so I'm wondering if I should go to a 1-7 twist or will a 1-8 twist give me a wider range of bullets to work with along with some heavier 69-70 grain bullet offerings?

I plan on purchasing a SS Savage action for the build and putting on at least a 26" Varmint weight, possibly fluted, SS aftermarket barrel.

Waiting to hear from you expert Prairie Doggers who actually use a 223AI at longer range.

Thanks.

 

[MarkS]

My 8 tw 223AI runs the 80gr very well out to 1000yds plus.

Mark Schronce

 

[CatShooter]

I'm trying to decided what twist rate I would want for my ultimate Prairie Dog (for me anyway) rifle build I plan on doing. I want this rifle to be able to handle 500+ yd shooting so I'm wondering if I should go to a 1-7 twist or will a 1-8 twist give me a wider range of bullets to work with along with some heavier 69-70 grain bullet offerings?

I plan on purchasing a SS Savage action for the build and putting on at least a 26" Varmint weight, possibly fluted, SS aftermarket barrel.

Waiting to hear from you expert Prairie Doggers who actually use a 223AI at longer range.

Thanks.

Having slain my share of PDs, forget about long heavy bullets - the PD's body does not have enough resistance to open a 70, 75, or 80 grain bullet.

And forget about "wind bucking"... you can not shoot anything with accuracy at a 4" target, at 500 yds, in a 30 mph cross wind.

Set yourself up on a town so the wind is directly in your face or at your back... then you have 0 mph cross wind to correct for.

Get a 12 or 9 inch twist and shoot 53 V-Maxs or 55gr BlitzKings - they will kill PDs past 1000 (if you can hit them) and they will flip them up in the air.

 

[IA_shooter]

A little background.........

I currently have a 1-10 twist 20" 20 Practical that does really well shooting 39 & 40 grain bullets out to around 500 yards. I did manage to kill a few prairie dogs last October with it @ 548 yards but I had brought along a regular .223 and it just wouldn't hold up out much past 400-450 yards but I was also shooting factory Fiocchi 50 grain V-Max ammo out of it that was only running about 3050 fps so I know when I go out this year I want to have a higher powered 22 cal and since I already have a bunch of .223 brass and 22 cal bullets I decided a .223AI would be the right choice for me.

I was thinking I wanted to be able to shoot higher BC, maybe up to the 80 grain bullets out of it mainly for the wind bucking/long range capabilities. The day I shot PD's, my guide set me up with a cross wind that was between 15-20mph and the "closest" dogs were around 375-380 yards with the majority of the PD's around 400 -450 yards and the lack of speed in the .223 that day really hindered it's use while my much faster but lighter bullets in my 20 Practical did fairly well considering.

I also want to be able to just fun/practice shoot out to several hundred yards during the year while fire forming and that was another reason I was thinking of a 1-7 or 1-8 twist but I'll get some of your guys opinions before I make a final decision.

 

[Wirelessguy2005]

not to take anything away from the 223 AI but i think i would consider the 22 BR or 22 Dasher if you want to shoot Pdogs at longer range with a 22 caliber. As mentioned in a prior post trying to fight the wind is a loosing proposition, its best to have the wind at your back or in your face.

 

[CatShooter]

not to take anything away from the 223 AI but i think i would consider the 22 BR or 22 Dasher if you want to shoot Pdogs at longer range with a 22 caliber. As mentioned in a prior post trying to fight the wind is a loosing proposition, its best to have the wind at your back or in your face.

For shooting PDs, custom calibres are the last thing you want to bring - you can make 223, 20 Prac and 20 Tac easily for pennies, whereas, 22 Br and 22 Dasher is dollars, plus barrel heat (a BIG PROBLEM), and you probably won't see your misses, which is imperative for successful PD shooting.

Anyone that shoots PDs without a 222/223 case based rifle is upping their cost per splatted PD ratio by a factor of 10.

I shot (and killed) PDs at up to 850 yards with a 222 Mag rifle, and they died on the spot.

 

[IA_shooter]

not to take anything away from the 223 AI but i think i would consider the 22 BR or 22 Dasher if you want to shoot Pdogs at longer range with a 22 caliber. As mentioned in a prior post trying to fight the wind is a loosing proposition, its best to have the wind at your back or in your face.

My main reason I'm going with the 223AI is overall cost of components and it's proven to be quite effective out to and beyond 750 yards. Using LC brass I can load quality ammo for it for about $.40-$.45/round depending on the bullet I use.

 

[varmintshooter]

I would go with the 8 twist rather than a 7. You will be able to shoot anything up to 80's if that's what you want but like cat said the 53's would be a good choice. I am shooting them in my 8 twist 223 AI @ 3600 but could probably get a little more but don't see the need.

 

[22DASHER]

FYI - 75 grain amax's destroy prairie dogs and put on quite a show!

Having slain my share of PDs, forget about long heavy bullets - the PD's body does not have enough resistance to open a 70, 75, or 80 grain bullet.

 

[Wirelessguy2005]

Catshooter,
The BR case is great for use on Pdogs, examples are 22BR, 20BR, 5/35 SMC, 6BR. I have used many of these cartridges along with 20 TAC, 20 VT, 20 SCC, 20-223AI, 223AI. If you are using heavy barreled rifles the BR cases don't heat barrels that much more than the 223 based cases in my experience. If they do happen to get warm switch to another gun and wait for the barrel to cool. Going to a BR based cartridge and the appropriate bullet combo will extend the useable range beyond what a 223AI is capable of. Add a brake into the mix and you can see the hits even when utilizing a BR based case. By the way the majority of my Pdog guns are custom wildcats and they do just fine year after year.
FYI: Its pretty disrespectful calling people crazy just because they don't use the cartridge you think they should.


[/quote]For shooting PDs, custom calibres are the last thing you want to bring - you can make 223, 20 Prac and 20 Tac easily for pennies, whereas, 22 Br and 22 Dasher is dollars, plus barrel heat (a BIG PROBLEM), and you probably won't see your misses, which is imperative for successful PD shooting.

Anyone that shoots PDs without a 222/223 case based rifle is crazy.

I shot (and killed) PDs at up to 850 yards with a 222 Mag rifle, and they died on the spot.
[/quote]

 

[Wirelessguy2005]

I apologize if i took the topic off course by bringing up the BR cartridges. I completely understand wanting to keep the cost down by using 223 brass. Although in the long run the brass is cheap compared to what a reloader spends in Powder, Primers, and bullets to feed the rifle.

not to take anything away from the 223 AI but i think i would consider the 22 BR or 22 Dasher if you want to shoot Pdogs at longer range with a 22 caliber. As mentioned in a prior post trying to fight the wind is a loosing proposition, its best to have the wind at your back or in your face.

My main reason I'm going with the 223AI is overall cost of components and it's proven to be quite effective out to and beyond 750 yards. Using LC brass I can load quality ammo for it for about $.40-$.45/round depending on the bullet I use.

 

[mac86951]

a 1-9 or a 1-8 will do just fine. I'd lean toward a 1-9 as it will do 69-70gr bullets without trouble, should do the 75 A-Max without trouble and may even handle the 77 SMK, though that is a bit pricey to be launching those against PDs.

-Mac

 

[CatShooter]

Catshooter,
The BR case is great for use on Pdogs, examples are 22BR, 20BR, 5/35 SMC, 6BR. I have used many of these cartridges along with 20 TAC, 20 VT, 20 SCC, 20-223AI, 223AI. If you are using heavy barreled rifles the BR cases don't heat barrels that much more than the 223 based cases in my experience. If they do happen to get warm switch to another gun and wait for the barrel to cool. Going to a BR based cartridge and the appropriate bullet combo will extend the useable range beyond what a 223AI is capable of. Add a brake into the mix and you can see the hits even when utilizing a BR based case. By the way the majority of my Pdog guns are custom wildcats and they do just fine year after year.
FYI: Its pretty disrespectful calling people crazy just because they don't use the cartridge you think they should.

I'll give you that - I changed the crazy. But it is not because someone is not shooting the cartridge that "Moi" think they should use - the art of dog shooting (successfully) has evolved over the last four plus decades into a proven style, and low cost ammunition, with high velocity and low recoil is the key combination in it.

But you can shoot PD with a 375 H&H if you want - but your number of total dead PDs and the cost per dead PD will be at the wrong end of the scale...

5/35 SMc?? How much are cases and dies for that one going for these days?? Oh, wait - they are out of business and there are no cases available.
I had lengthy emails with Mic... it turned out that their fan-damn-tastic velocity claims were achieved by shooting empty 20 cal jackets (weighing 20 grains) with no core. Would you like to fire form 1,000+ 5/35 SMc cases for a PD shoot, or maybe just shoot a 20 Prac or 20 Tac with cases at 10¢ each and one pass through a sizing die?

If you live near a PD town and can buzz over for an hour for 50 shots, that is fine... but if you drive for a day or two (like 95% of PD shooters) then the idea of forming and preping 1,000+ cases for a wildcat or non-standard calibre, with basic cases that are 60¢ to $1.00+ is "Cxxxx", when a calibre that is based on a .223 case that is used straight or just neck sized down and loaded, is... well, you know, that "Cxxxx" word again.

Shooting Marmots is a low volume effort, but shooting PD... well, bring your ammo in buckets or cartons.

But everyone is free to shoot what they want.

 

[LitLBoy]

Listen to Cat-Shooter My gun is a 223AI Lilja 3 grove 12 twist, 27.6/ 8208XBR
Fed 205M, 55 SBK's @ 3525FPS
LC 11 brass (supplied to the smith) is a gentle crush fit when fire forming. The PD's can't tell the difference when I'm fire forming and neither can I.
LitLBoy

 

[Phil]

.223AI
8 Twist
28-30" length
.064-.070 should allow you to shoot the 53 Vmax and the 75 Amax.

Following a recommendation from another forum member, my reamer is being cut with the .064 free bore.

Phil.


P.S...EVERYONE shooting, rats / gophers / pasture poodles / prarie dogs....etc., should have a .223AI irreguardless of the other cartridges they choose to own / use.

 

[shoot4fun]

I would recommend the 8 twist. Do not pay any attention to those who say forget heavy bullets and use a slower twist. The 223AI is a very capable round and one's rifle chambered in such should not be limited to lighter weight bullets. When the 1 in 12 twist barrel in my original 223AI gave up I switched to a 1 in 8 twist without hesitation. I wouldn't change a thing.
My 22" 1 in 8 twist sends 77SMKs at 2900+ FPS and, even in the wind, has no trouble in ringing the 500+ yard steel dead center.

 

[DogBuster]

On my 2nd 223AI tube...first was P-N 26" 12 twist..ran 9K rds out....then rebarreled to another P-N but 28" 9 twist..as shown in pic...Savage 'M' series solid bottom s/shot...large shank..Vortex PST...the 53 grain V max is all you need...take it out to 750 yds easily...p/dogs are not hard to kill..if I want to shoot 75's..80's or even 90 grain boolits..I'll use my 6BR 12T or 6XC 8T.....

 

[bheadboy]

LitlBoy

what length bbl are you shooing to get these results.

I a considers taking the 12 twist facgtory 26" I have and going AI -- it shoots well but 3450-3500 is it with the 50bk

Bob

 

[2dogs]

I have both the 1/8 and two 1/14 223AI rifles with match barrels. I far prefer the 1/14s for PD hunting. Not that the 1/8 does not do well with the heavies, but If I take it out again, it will be running the 53 grain V max. I can make 3700 fps with that bullet with my 27" 1/8 twist rifle with excellent accuracy. I see 2950 fps with the Sierra 80 grain matchking and have not tried the 75 grain V max but I understand it is quite the hammer on long range PDs.

On the other hand, my 223 AI 1/14 guns are just excellent with the 40 grain NBT. I fireform cases at 3850+ and run full power loads at 4000+ and the prairie winds don't bother me a whit. It takes a lot of distance for BC to overcome raw speed in my experience.

I also have 2 22BRs with 1/9 twists. These are in my opinion the way to go with 69+ grain bullets. No fireforming, easy to make cases, and extremely accurate. My rifles are repeaters. Still, I have found I have scant need for them for the excellent performance of my 1/14 40 grain NBT 223 AI rifles.

This is just my experience. I believe I am in the minority since far more PD hunters run the 50 grain class bullets. My brother shoots the 50 NBT and does just fine right alongside me. Still, even he is impressed with the 40 grain NBT performance in my rifles even in heavy winds.

Last, I recently bought a 204 Ruger and built a 1/14 6mm BR. So, I would say whatever you build, enjoy yourself and shoot the snot out of your rifle!

As an aside, my buddy runs a 1/9 Hart barrel 20" 223 with the Hornady superperformance 53 grain V max. He has 51 kills with 51 shots on S. Texas hogs. Not prairie dogs, but still wonderful performance from such a little bullet!

PASS THE DANG POPCORN!

 

[MarkS]

IA_shooter,

My 8tw also shoots 50gr Blitzkings as well as the 80gr Berger, so you have the best of both worlds.

Mark Schronce