Die Shims or competition shell holders?

[TrxR]

I am getting ready to put an order in for a set of dies a Redding FL type S and a competition seater for 308 and was wondering which is preferred to go with them for setting up the sizing die for the proper shoulder bump? Which do you all like the best the Shims or the shell holders? What are the pros and cons to each?

Thanks

 

[fdshuster]

TrxR: I don't know what anybody else does, but when setting up a new sizing die, I adjust the lock ring to adjust the amount of bump on the shoulder, usually .002". I take an as-fired case & establish the headspace length, then adjust for .002" less.

On my oldest 6BR chambering, for instance, the headspace length is 1.153", and the Redding die is adjusted to that. Other 6BR chamberings have slightly different length's, 1.155" to 1.159", and that's when I'll use the Skips die shims under the lock ring.

If you have one 308 chambering, then there should be no need for shims or the shellholder set. Adjust the die for that chamber, set it and forget it.

 

[Old Navy]

I have not used shims but I do use the a Redding +.010 shell holder to allow my press to cam over while giving me the right amount of shoulder bump. Without the shell holder contacting the die my shoulder bump was all over the place. Later! Frank

 

[Shynloco]

TrxR: I don't know what anybody else does, but when setting up a new sizing die, I adjust the lock ring to adjust the amount of bump on the shoulder, usually .002". I take an as-fired case & establish the headspace length, then adjust for .002" less.

On my oldest 6BR chambering, for instance, the headspace length is 1.153", and the Redding die is adjusted to that. Other 6BR chamberings have slightly different length's, 1.155" to 1.159", and that's when I'll use the Skips die shims under the lock ring.

If you have one 308 chambering, then there should be no need for shims or the shellholder set. Adjust the die for that chamber, set it and forget it.

I support fds' post 1000%. Forget the shellholders and shims. I've done all that stuff (and the shims and Comp Shell holders sit on the shelf along with the Redding Body Die) and the adjustment on the Redding FL die is all I do anymore and it's extremely reliable. Of course I go overboard and use an RCBS Precision mic (on each casing I resize) to set the die to the .002 or whatever is needed to get that consistent "bump" for all my cases in a particular set.

Alex

 

[243winxb]

Competition shell holders will square the die in the press when the shell holder makes contact with the die. Tighten lock ring after contact. The amount of shoulder set back will be more exact.

 

[LHSmith]

Competition shell holders will square the die in the press when the shell holder makes contact with the die. Tighten lock ring after contact. The amount of shoulder set back will be more exact.

Sorry, but I don't follow the logic. The die is what it is....it was either made sraight, true and concentric....and a close match to the chamber ( hopefully). or not.The mounting in the press should have no influence other than setting distance for H/S ....and the slop in the S/H prevents the S/H from any influence it might have on the case head.

 

[Shynloco]

Competition shell holders will square the die in the press when the shell holder makes contact with the die. Tighten lock ring after contact. The amount of shoulder set back will be more exact.

Sorry, but I don't follow the logic. The die is what it is....it was either made sraight, true and concentric....and a close match to the chamber ( hopefully). or not.The mounting in the press should have no influence other than setting distance for H/S ....and the slop in the S/H prevents the S/H from any influence it might have on the case head.

I agree! Compettition shellholders only alter the bump (.002) because of their height and do not create a "truer" bump.

 

[243winxb]

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3789175.15

Thank you for using Redding Reloading Equipment. If your Full Length Sizing Die is adjusted to just make contact with the shell holder, and you run a case up into the die. You will see a gap between the bottom of the die and the top of the shellholder. What happens is when the case pushes up on inside of the die and it removes the play between the threads of the die and the threads of the press. There is also some flex in the press itself, even Redding Ultramag Press will flex. Each piece of brass will have a different amount of resistance to resizing. So this gap will vary, which gives you a variation in shoulder setback.

Redding's Competition Shellholders allow you to adjust your die for a cam-over (screw the die down another 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn) and eliminate this gap. You then adjust the shoulder set back by using the Competition Shellholders. You start with the +.010 and work back toward the +.002 shellholder until you achieve the shoulder set back you want or your bolt handle will close freely. You may still see some variation due to difference in spring back of each piece of brass.

I hope this helps.

Regards
Chris Fox
Customer Service

Redding Reloading Equipment

 

[fdshuster]

Two ways of doing the same job. I happen to prefer Skip's die shims, and once my die lock ring is adjusted and set, I never touch it again. I also do not like to "cam-over" my RCBS Rockchucker. To me that's putting a lot of stress on the linkage. We all have our preferred way of doing something & that just happens to be my choice. Others are free to do whatever they prefer.

 

[TrxR]

Thanks everyone. I dont know if it make any difference or not but I will be using a Big Boss 2 press and not a rockchucker so I dont know about the camover .

Thanks

 

[LHSmith]

Thanks everyone. I dont know if it make any difference or not but I will be using a Big Boss 2 press and not a rockchucker so I dont know about the camover .

Thanks

Actually, on the Redding Boss series presses if you remove the roll pin in the press body it allows the case to enter the die twice in one complete stroke of the handle. Unlike the Rockchucker, with the Boss I KNOW where true TDC is. The RC is TDC is dependent upon a stop milled in the linkage bar which may be affected by how aggressive you are with the handle.
This system may work well for me because my dies are a close match to the chamber and it does not take much force to FLS...I constantly check H/S of the sized brass.
Bottom line is I have 2 of each, and I use the Reddings for Competition cartridges.

 

[LHSmith]

While milling down S/H's might be a good idea and necessary, it would also be a good idea to somehow ID that S/H ( i.e. dab of paint ) so you don't use it with other dies that you have "pre-set" with the lockring ......W/O making the necessary corrections.

 

[TrxR]

I will only be loading for one rifle for now. So what would you all recommend? If I set the die up to be touching the standard Shell holder at the top of the stroke do the competition shell holder increase the shoulder bump and the shims decrease? Or am I looking at this wrong.


Thanks

 

[bigedp51]

In the Speer reloading manual number nine, dated 1974 there is a chapter titled "Modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques" by Neal Knox, Editor, "The Rifle and Handloader Magazines" and winner of the 1974 NBRSA Varmit Class National Matches.

Several pages deal with setting up "standard" reloading dies and eliminating any misalignment and centering the dies in the press due to the slop in the 7/8x14 die threads.

The two things that always sticks in my mind are these statements from this chapter.

Centering the die in the press.

Before the lock ring is tightened down the die is adjusted downward until the press cams over. A lubed case is then placed in the shell holder and the ram raised "centering" the die in the press. At this time the lock ring is tightened down and locked in position.

More inaccurate ammunition is reloaded than any other cause because the decapping rod/expander button is locked down off center and inducing neck runout. It goes on telling you how to center the decapping rod/expander button.

My RCBS Rockchucker press is over 40 years old and has been caming over for a majority of this time and is not worn out. Shoulder bump and cam over can be achieved and adjusted with feeler gauges placed between the shell holder and the die.

The die instructions for RCBS tell you to cam over and I believe it is stated for a reason, and I believe this is to help center the die in the threads. I use headspace control shims under the die lock ring BUT I always wonder if the dies would be better aligned if they were making hard contact with the shell holder. (meaning I was always too cheap to buy the competition shell holders)

On the flip side of this it doesn't do any good doing all this aligning and centering if you have dents and dings in your extractor groove and when the ram is lowered the case is tilted and off center in the shell holder.

I will be buying the competition shell holders for "some" of my rifles and give them a try.

 

[Piccolo]

file attached (hopefully) on topic

 

[dkhunt14]

file attached (hopefully) on topic

This thread is 4 years old. I am sure he bought what he needed and has it all worked out by now. Matt

 

[fguffey]

wondering which is preferred to go with them for setting up the sizing die for the proper shoulder bump? Which do you all like the best the Shims or the shell holders? What are the pros and cons to each?

I suggest a reloader learn to adjust the die, after learning to adjust the die I suggest the reloader learn to verify. I know, there are shims by Skip, to add and or subtract Skip's shims the die must be removed and I have always asked: Dies adding and or removing shims increase and or decrease the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing and/or decreases the ability of the press to overcome the cases ability to size the case?

Before the Redding Competition 5 shell holder set I was forming/sizing cases for short chambers and long chambers. I did all of that with one shell holder; that would be 26 different length cases (from the shoulder to the case head), the cost of all of that was and still is $11.00. Back then reloaders were grinding the base of the die and or top pf the shell holder because there cases were tuffer to size and required a press that could overcome the case's ability to resist sizing.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

My RCBS Rockchucker press is over 40 years old and has been caming over for a majority of this time and is not worn out. Shoulder bump and cam over can be achieved and adjusted with feeler gauges placed between the shell holder and the die.

I have 3 Rock Chuckers, none of my Rock Chuckers cam over, I have at least 12 Herter presses; all of my Herter presses cam over. In the old days days cam over presses were referred to as being bump presses because they bumped on the way up and again on the way down.

RCBS Rock Chuckers can not cam over, all of my Rock Chuckers go into a bind, jam up and lock up. When they lock up the ram is kicked back at the bottom and forward at the top. The first time an internet reloader noticed this they blamed it on China. Before the Internet the Rock Chucker was coupled with an attachment that had a one way clutch; I have never found a reloader that understood one way clutches but the one way clutch can not be operated while attached to a cam over press.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Shoulder bump and cam over can be achieved and adjusted with feeler gauges placed between the shell holder and the die.

You claim you have a Rock Chucker and you claim you have had it for 40 years and I wonder if any of that is true why you waited so long to post pictures. Feeler gages? If you had a press that cammed over you could measure the amount of cam over. The RCBS A2 was a cam over press.

Feeler gages? When a reloader adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage they are adjusting the die to increase the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head.

And you think you can bump a shoulder back? I said it is impossible to move the shoulder back and or bump the shoulder back with a die that has full length case body support; and it gets sillier when reloaders believe they have body dies that bump the shoulder.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Alignment? And for years and years I have said the ram kick back at the bottom and forward at the top and Internet reloaders are too lazy to push away from the keyboard etc. Alignment? A reloader was putting a Rock Chucker through its paces and complaing about the ram kicking forward at the top with no clue. No clue? The ram is one solid piece, if the ram kicks forward at the top the bottom of the ram kicks back at the bottom.

Again, I have 3 Rock Chuckers, all of them kick forward at the top and back at the bottom 'ONLY!' then I operate them in a no load situation. If I raise the ram to size a 30/06 case the case aligns the shell holder with the die. And then there are shell holders, again, I have shell holders that fit like a hand-me-down shirt, we should all know and understand the hand me down shirt only fits were it touches, shell holders are like that. And then there are cases with thick case heads, thick as in being thick from the top of the cup above the web to the case head. I have cases that are .260" thick and I have cases that are .200" thick.

F. Guffey