What is the expected real-world accuracy???
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What kind of rifle? There are a number of standards to compare to.
My 3 really, really accurate rem varmint hs 223’s can do about 1.5” at 400 in calm conditions with premium hand loads. These are pick of the litter remingtons that have been accurized. Factory barrels though.
My 3 really, really accurate rem varmint hs 223’s can do about 1.5” at 400 in calm conditions with premium hand loads. These are pick of the litter remingtons that have been accurized. Factory barrels though.
I can tell you that I have yet to shoot any 69 SMK or any out that far for groups, BUT my old Win Model 70 HV absolutely loves the Hornady 68 gr match bullets . My best groups were in the LOW teens. I think the best of all was a .119" center to center @ 100 yds using Benchmark powder and LC cases. That was out of a 1/9 twist factory rifle. The only mod to it was I bedded the chamber area about 1.5" in front of the recoil lug. I'd guess if you have a good rifle the 69's should do as well as the Hornady's do . Should easily group into a couple inches or less at 400, but as the range increases so do the variables that are almost non existent @ 100.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
The answer to your question requires some knowledge of the typical wind conditions. The 69s don't fare too well in wind at those distances. Obviously the shooter's ability to read the conditions will also have an impact.
In absolutely dead calm wind conditions, I would expect a finely-tuned load with the 69s in a good bolt rifle setup should might able to produce 5-shot groups in the 0.25 to 0.3 MOA range (maybe 1.0 to 1.5 inches, or thereabouts). It might be just a tick better with a dedicated BR setup and a very skilled driver, although I doubt there are very many BR setups chambered in .223 Rem.
As the wind picks up, so will the expected size of the groups. For shooting 400 yd and farther with a .223 Rem, your best bet is to have the rifle throated appropriately to load 80-90 gr bullets if there is much wind where you shoot most often. The "heavies" can be loaded with equal precision to bullets in the 50-70 gr range, and perform far better in windy conditions.
In absolutely dead calm wind conditions, I would expect a finely-tuned load with the 69s in a good bolt rifle setup should might able to produce 5-shot groups in the 0.25 to 0.3 MOA range (maybe 1.0 to 1.5 inches, or thereabouts). It might be just a tick better with a dedicated BR setup and a very skilled driver, although I doubt there are very many BR setups chambered in .223 Rem.
As the wind picks up, so will the expected size of the groups. For shooting 400 yd and farther with a .223 Rem, your best bet is to have the rifle throated appropriately to load 80-90 gr bullets if there is much wind where you shoot most often. The "heavies" can be loaded with equal precision to bullets in the 50-70 gr range, and perform far better in windy conditions.
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xswanted
Gold $$ Contributor
I personally believe if you can take your rifle and in real world conditions shoot 1 MOA you’re doing very well.
To answer your question I think anything under 6” would be real world expectations for smaller than average group size.
Average guy probably 6-8” groups at that range with that combo.
To answer your question I think anything under 6” would be real world expectations for smaller than average group size.
Average guy probably 6-8” groups at that range with that combo.
Define "real world".
There are specialist these days with special rifles, scopes, etc. making incredible shots at distance unheard of in my younger days. These guys are amazing but I haven't seen much of it where I shoot and hunt.
The average guy I meet at the range and I'm at the range about 2 days a week - year around, is about a 1.5 moa shooter off the bench with a factory rifle with factory ammo. Some are better, some are worse, a few are a lot better especially with tuned rifles and reloads. But the clubs where I belong the max range distance is 200 yards and I don't see many groups under 2" even off the bench at this distance.
I have a few 223's that are 1/2 to 1/4 moa rifles off the bench at 100 yards. But I don't believe I have the skills to extrapolate that level of accuracy out to 400 yards nor did I have the need to since I rarely shoot off a bench - only during load testing or initial scope sight in. 99% of my shooting is off a shooting cross stick practicing for varmint / predator / deer hunting. That probably isn't real world.
While I hunt a lot of varmints and some predators (without the aid of a bench) I have no need to go beyond 300 yards and 90% the time I'm under 250 yards. I don't know if I'm real world or just old world - probably the latter.
There are specialist these days with special rifles, scopes, etc. making incredible shots at distance unheard of in my younger days. These guys are amazing but I haven't seen much of it where I shoot and hunt.
The average guy I meet at the range and I'm at the range about 2 days a week - year around, is about a 1.5 moa shooter off the bench with a factory rifle with factory ammo. Some are better, some are worse, a few are a lot better especially with tuned rifles and reloads. But the clubs where I belong the max range distance is 200 yards and I don't see many groups under 2" even off the bench at this distance.
I have a few 223's that are 1/2 to 1/4 moa rifles off the bench at 100 yards. But I don't believe I have the skills to extrapolate that level of accuracy out to 400 yards nor did I have the need to since I rarely shoot off a bench - only during load testing or initial scope sight in. 99% of my shooting is off a shooting cross stick practicing for varmint / predator / deer hunting. That probably isn't real world.
While I hunt a lot of varmints and some predators (without the aid of a bench) I have no need to go beyond 300 yards and 90% the time I'm under 250 yards. I don't know if I'm real world or just old world - probably the latter.
OP's apparently at that part of his shooting life where he thinks that there are manifest differences between things where there really aren't. I wonder if he's meaning to ask for an error budget like https://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/1999/ARL-TR-2065.pdf (OP, don't read that, it'll just confuse the issue). The error budget of https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgov...0/armament/WednesdayLandmarkBPerArvidsson.pdf might be more enlightening.
Seriously though, perhaps OP's question coud be redefined as "How well will I be able to shoot 69gr MK's from a .223 at 400 yards?" And the answer is, "How the hell should we know?" Personally I don't know anyone that regularly shoots groups at intermediate range who is not a formal benchrest competition shooter or a nerd with too much time on their hands.
Seriously though, perhaps OP's question coud be redefined as "How well will I be able to shoot 69gr MK's from a .223 at 400 yards?" And the answer is, "How the hell should we know?" Personally I don't know anyone that regularly shoots groups at intermediate range who is not a formal benchrest competition shooter or a nerd with too much time on their hands.
I have an off the shelf Savage 12FV in 223. This gun was purchased during a Savage rebate and Cabelas sale for under $250 OTD. The only change I made to it was to toss the plastic stock and bed it into laminate stock. It has a 1/9 twist varmint barrel, varmint accutrigger, inexpensive Vortex 6-18x40 AO scope.
My first load workup was 53gr V-Max over IMR3031, and in my son's hands it shot many sub 1/4 moa groups and several in the zeros. With this load, 4 inch clays at 500 yds are easy. At 700 yds a 6 inch steel was just as easy. Misses are rare.
TODAY this rifle was making overlapping holes at 100 yds using 69 gr Lapua Scenars seated .010 in the lands and Varget. I plan to shoot it during a score contest this weekend, though I'll probably wish I had a 30BR.
The 53 gr makes about 3350 fps
The 69 gr makes about 2950 fps.
Neither are a particularly hot load.
Because of the extra velocity and excellent B.C. of the 53 V.Max, it rivals the performance of the 69gr under 500 yds.
Ability to shoot tight groups at 400 yds really comes down to wind reading skills.
My first load workup was 53gr V-Max over IMR3031, and in my son's hands it shot many sub 1/4 moa groups and several in the zeros. With this load, 4 inch clays at 500 yds are easy. At 700 yds a 6 inch steel was just as easy. Misses are rare.
TODAY this rifle was making overlapping holes at 100 yds using 69 gr Lapua Scenars seated .010 in the lands and Varget. I plan to shoot it during a score contest this weekend, though I'll probably wish I had a 30BR.
The 53 gr makes about 3350 fps
The 69 gr makes about 2950 fps.
Neither are a particularly hot load.
Because of the extra velocity and excellent B.C. of the 53 V.Max, it rivals the performance of the 69gr under 500 yds.
Ability to shoot tight groups at 400 yds really comes down to wind reading skills.
So for my BR rifles, like my fast twist 22BR shooting 88ELD or my 20 Vartarg shooting 55gn Bergers (close to your 223 with 69SMK ballistically), I expect less than an inch at 300yards and start getting excited at 0.5 inches or less at that distance. I've never seen a factory rifle do that consistently, but custom guns will regularly. Have to have wind flags and have to have a good load.
Handful of years ago I seen a younger fella with a cheap 223r Savage Axis in a Boyd's stock (not bedded). His handloads with 52 or 53 or 55 gr v-max (can't remember the exact ones, but v-max for sure) was shooting 1" at 330 yards.
I chronoed 10 of his handloads over my chronograph and all 10 went into about 1" at 330 yards. ES was crazy high. Most of the ES was within 50 or 60 fps and 1 shot took it over 100 fps ES. Yet they still shot amazing !
I remember he was using Benchmark powder and Winchester brass. Don't remember the primer type.
I chronoed 10 of his handloads over my chronograph and all 10 went into about 1" at 330 yards. ES was crazy high. Most of the ES was within 50 or 60 fps and 1 shot took it over 100 fps ES. Yet they still shot amazing !
I remember he was using Benchmark powder and Winchester brass. Don't remember the primer type.
Factory remington 700 sps tactical (read 20" 1:9 barrel), bedded in a heavy BC A5 knock off stock, shooting 70gr RDF hand loads, calm day, 450 yards. Very happy with this group, plate is 8 inches.
It depends on your definition of real world. For me range work in not real world. The real world offers many more variables the affect groups at that range. If your rifle likes those bullets and it's a decent range shooter, 1/2 minute of angle in the field you might hold 3" at 400 yards on a calm day. The next day or even later the same day it may be different.
Regardless of what many say, if a rifle will hold MOA consistently and the shooter does his part in trigger control, etc. you will get 95% of any animal or target you shoot at, very cleanly.
I agree with this statement. I think way too much energy goes into the thought process rather than into the shooting practice.
Sure if you're looking to head shoot chucks out to 300+ yards you need an accurate rifle and a good sighting system.
With that said I have 2 varmint rigs so configured, however for, medium game in my area I regularly use iron sighted rifles, a 444 S Marlin or a sporterized 8MM Mauser. In areas of 200 or less the Marlin fits fine, if there's a chance of a 300 yard area the 8MM suits. Iron sights are not a handicap.
If I head to open farm fields with longer shot possibilities I have scoped rifles capable of 1" at 100 yards, a 6.5 x 55 Swede and a Remington 1917. Both work fine out past 300.
For brown bear I have a custom Mauser in 450 Marlin set up for 500 grain bulletts, that also carries iron sights.
My accuracy with any of these rifles has more to do with how much I practice with them more than anything else. If I practice alot and do my part on a moderately windy day I can wack a chuck out past 350 with my 223. If I don't do the work on a great day I can miss a shot at 200.
I pick the right caliber for the required game and hunting conditions.
Without a lot more details your question is like asking - How high is up? The only answer is - it depends.
drover
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