Discussion in 'Small Stuff--22s, 20s, and 17s' started by xswanted, Oct 5, 2019.
The new 85.5 Berger Hybrid was officially announced on The Shooting Wire this morning.
Supposed to be a weight forward easy to tune bullet designed for LR shooting. Berger says for 7 twist.
I want to try them in my new 6.5 twist 223.
Looks to be very interesting to me.
The dimensions from Berger's "New Products" page - re-posted here for posterity:
This bullet is now also listed in Berger's Twist Rate Calculator pull-down menu. Using a velocity of 2850 fps (which may be a bit less than you can actually achieve with a 30" barrel), 70 degrees F temp and 1000 ft elevation (i.e - ~ middle case scenario) here is the output:
I don't think I'd be using an 8-twist with this bullet under any circumstances. Not sure why Berger chose to use an 8-twist as their "minimum twist rate necessary" value. You might get away with a 7.5-twist, but an 8-twist isn't going to cut it, even in a moderate atmospheric condition scenario. I'd use a 7-twist and call it good.
Kind of had me scratching my head also.
I should probably qualify my previous statement about using an 8-twist. An 8-twist barrel would certainly work in that the bullet likely isn't going to be keyholing or falling out of the sky. However, I'm guessing that most of the people at this forum that are interested in trying this bullet are mostly interested in using it in competition, which means getting the most you possibly can out of it. When competing in F-TR with a .223 Rem against other shooters using 185 to 200 gr (or more) 30 cal bullets, you want every bit of performance you can get.
This new 85.5 bullet already has a very slightly lower BC than the other bullets in this weight class (SMK 90, 90 VLD, 88 ELDM). I wouldn't want to be giving up any more by running it in a twist rate that slow, even though it was stabilized. When using a slower than optimal twist rate, I generally like to keep the Sg value in the low to mid 1.3 range at a minimum. The 85.5 Hybrid out of an 8-twist barrel under medium-case atmospheric conditions (70 degrees, 1000 ft elevation) is down in the upper 1.2s. Under worse-case atmospheric conditions (59 degrees, 0 ft elevation), the predicted Sg drops to 1.22, which isn't so great. That doesn't mean you couldn't get away with it, the bullet wouldn't be going through the target sideways or anything like that, but you'd be giving up a fair bit of BC (up to 8% of the intrinsic BC), which isn't so great considering what you may already giving up by using a .223 Rem with a lighter, lower BC bullet relative to competitors using a .30 cal setup.
FWIW - I created a bullet file in QuickLoad using the 85.5 Hybrid dimensional information and ran some estimates using H4895 with the factory preset burn rate (see below). According to the QL predictions at OBT Node 4, the velocity would be ~2880 fps from a 30" barrel throated with 0.220" fb, with pressure slightly below SAAMI MAX. As I expected, the 85.5 is predicted to tune slightly faster than a 90 VLD in the same rifle (~2880 fps versus 2850 fps), meaning the very slight decrease in BC with the 85.5 as compared to the 90 VLD is probably a wash. Notably, the predicted pressure is just below the 55K MAX for .223 Rem, in the neighborhood of ~3K psi lower than a comparable 90 VLD load. I suspect that might be very good news in terms of brass life for those that like to get everything they can out of their .223 competition loads like I try to do. If this bullet tunes in reasonably well and doesn't have the jacket issues sometimes associated with the 90 VLDs, I think it will more than live up to the expectations.
I've been on the very annoying end of the rifle shooting the old 80-Amax and Berger 80.5 fullbore thru 8-twists .223 barrels and have seen them fly every which way sometimes but didn't go thru the target side-ways. As I wouldn't try shooting either thru a 1/8 twist, I definitely would never try this 85.5 in less than a 1/7 twist either.
I commonly shoot at ~300ft ASL so that elevation is very unforgiving if the twist is too slow.
MidwayUSA and Creedmoor sports are both taking pre-orders on the .224 Berger 85.5 hybred bullet.
I'm very interested, but I'd love to hear from others if they will hold up to higher velocities. My 22Br with a 1:7 5R Bartlien blows up the 90VLD, 95 SMK, and 88 ELD at any speed over 2800fps. Slow pace 3 shot groups are fine. 5 shot groups and they start popping midway to the target. If the 85.5 holds up to 3050fps for a string of 10, then I'm a happy camper!
It's an interesting option that I'm happy will be available. Am I rushing out to place an order? No. The 80 SMK is doing well enough right now. But if reports are good and Berger maintains a continuous supply, it will be high on my list to try for stretching the .223 to 1000 yards. I especially like that this offering seems more cost competitive with Hornady and Sierra. The 185 Jugg was too expensive.
So chances of running this in a 6.5 twist 22 Creed at 3000+ are slim to none? Asking because I’m finishing up a build with these specs and hoping to make it work
Don't know about the 85 hybrid, but cross fingers that you can shoot something heavier than an 80 without it going poof. For me, slow rate of fire and frequently cleaning every 12 to 15 rounds helps stop the blowups. The barrel would be gone if it didn't shoot so darn well!
There is no way to know until people shoot them and report back here. Some people have had jacket failures using other bullets in this weight group, specifically the 90 VLDs and 88 ELDMs. However, that in no way reflects on this new bullet...we simply won't know until people are using them. In general, a shorter bearing surface often means lighter weight, and less stress on the jacket, so the 85.5 Hybrid design is certainly headed in the right direction. As an example, Berger's 80.5 Fullbore bullet does not have a reputation for shedding jackets like their 90 VLD. Nonetheless, the only way to know for sure is to try them.
FWIW - people that have had jacket issues with the 90 VLDs or 88 ELDMs are often pushing them pretty hard. Barrel twist rates of less than 7.0 and/or velocities in excess of 2800-2825 fps (30" barrel) are the two most common properties associated with jacket failures. My personal feeling is that in many cases, the loads/setups were right at the upper edge/limit, or occasionally just a tick over, and jacket failure was the result. In other words, people weren't necessarily pushing the envelope by a huge margin. So it's likely that if the 85.5 Hybrid enjoys even a small decrease over the 88s/90s in the propensity for jacket failures, it will not be close to the edge and should work just fine. But that is only my gut feeling; having a number of people testing/shooting them will answer the question.
I pulled my 22 creed barrel due to to many bullet blow ups.
Tried the Berger 90's Sierra 90's and Hornady 75 elm's all would blow up at one time or another.
Was running a 7 tw and @3200-3300 fps So 330,000 to 340,000 rpms
Had a smith tel me to try to stay under 310,000 rpm's
So you need a 7.5 twist
Most people don't start to notice them going poof till 300+ rounds down the barrel
Wondering if Berger made these cause of the many complaints of there 90g turning into dust.
Very surprised to hear that. This season, 95gr SMK at 3030 fps in a 30" bartlein 7 twist and no failures this year. (22 BR improved) I am 1500+ rnds into it. i know the frustrations you are dealing with but am surprised to hear the SMKs failing.
That 310k number was about where I think things go off the rails also. I know this will not sit well but I would error in the slower twist direction when you get past about 223AI capacity... or about 3k RPM.
You can also call Bartlein and order a .219 bore. Its a little easier on jackets. Im spinning some at 340k+ and havent lost any yet. <fingerscrossed>
Does barrel length play into jacket failure at all?
To the degree bbl length determines muzzle velocity, it will also affect RPM and therefore jacket separation at excessive speeds.
Theretically, anyway. Actual experence may vary.
I'd say powder charge has a bigger contribution to the problem.
Was wondering if more distance traveled in contact with the bore added to more wear on the jacket. Newb question.
Separate names with a comma.