Long Range Sizing Question

Discussion in 'Reloading Forum (All Calibers)' started by JEFFPPC, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. JEFFPPC

    JEFFPPC

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    I have had discussions with 2 accomplished 1000 yd shooters who have very different opinions about when to size and then seat bullets. One anneals and lets his cases sit for least 24 hours , then sizes and lets them sit for a week before adding powder and seating bullets. The other anneals, waits 24 hours, sizes his cases and within a few hours adds powder and bullets. Both firmly feel this gives them the most even neck tension on the loaded round. I am interested in other 1000 yd competitors thoughts on this. Since they both do very well maybe it does't really matter?
     
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  2. Stan Taylor

    Stan Taylor

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    We'll my work schedule causes me to load the night before a match I don't have many problems with my shooting respectful.
     
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  3. rwj

    rwj Silver $$ Contributor

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    If either of the long range shooters provided technical reasons for waiting, I suspect that there are many forum members that would like to learn from them! Metallurgical changes in the case material grain structure occurs at temperatures above 600 degrees F. I would certainly wait until the cases normalized to room temperature before performing the next loading step, but currently see no benefit to waiting longer. I also believe in “listening” to the targets!
     
  4. dkhunt14

    dkhunt14

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    I anneal and then blow dry. My annealing machine dumps them in a bowl of water. I know they don't need put in water but I keep my cases in the same order and need to put back in the loading block so i don't mix them up. I then let them sit upside down till the next day. I then size and load. Once I size, i don't like to let the cases sit before I put a bullet in them. I believe once annealed properly, the cases don't get softer or harder by just sitting. But after you size spring back comes into play. Matt
     
  5. Curious

    Curious

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    All sorts of things get into peoples heads when it comes to reloading, it doesn't make it right.

    Im fairly confident in saying there will be nothing in metallurgy to support these theories and thats its nothing more than superstition. If there was anything in it then we would most likely already know about it.
     
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  6. Delfuego

    Delfuego Silver $$ Contributor

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    If you do your annealing in captain america underoos you will not run into any issues. I have tried superman and spiderman and got the most consistent result with captain america's on. YMMV
     
  7. alinwa

    alinwa

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    My simple (but IMO very consistent!!) annealing process;


    -I first do a gentle degrease using a room temperature mix of Methyl Ethyl Ketone and isopropyl Alcohol, ROUGH but gentle, this is the first degrease.

    -Then a warming cycle, I've build machine that gradually rises temp 2 degrees per hour. I bring to 64*C and hold for 3hrs.

    -Then a second and final degrease by soaking in straight MEK for 3-5 hrs thru the "cooldown period" bringing the cases back to ambient.

    -A quick shake-out using a two-sided colander, roll/roll/roll, quickly but again, gently with a supple wrist motion.

    -now were ready for the drying process.....

    -I begin by standing the cases in 50rd milled AL loading blocks in an oven, a convection oven with gently swirling air (2 birds, 1 stone!)

    -After 1hr in oven I run my hairdryer over the cases as I peer gently into all of them inspecting for traces of moisture.

    -Next is the all important "final check of dryness".......

    -My shop air is set at 180psi, this is a little hot as it tends to send cases bouncing around the room...... so I regulate it down to 165psi and stuff an air nozzle into each case mouth, spewing any residual MEK violently forth and scattering it widely. I do this inside a specially built box, a small room fabricated from repurposed freezer boxes which I line with reclaimed, green onion-skin paper (actually the "green" paper is white as it's triple-bleached after reclamation but you know what i mean lol)... the paper picks of traces of fluid which, viewed under ultraviolet light fluoresces brightly, the viewing under a black light trick is one I'm very proud of..... makes the whole process very exciting and CSI-like.......If ANY TRACE of liquid is present I go back to step one and start the drying process all over, life is TOO SHORT to have residual MEK in my cases!

    -If I PASS, in other words if all the onion-skins pass under the fluoroscope without shining bluely I'm then ready to anneal.

    -My annealer does 17 cases at a time, it's temperature controlled to the micro-degree and it runs the cases through a swirling mist of 68*F water droplets before dropping them into an agitated water bath regulated to 50*F (I use F for this because my WW thermometers are 'Murican, not foreign) I'm contemplating adding ultrasonic vibration to the agitation in an attempt at preventing the ever-present cavitation which occurs every rotation but this is future-speak as I'm currently under-funded so to speak.

    -I don't feel a need to normalize the temperature of the cases going into the annealer since I've individual thermo-laser pickups on each of the 17 cases which feed into a software app which adjusts for each individual case with a true real-time feedback loop, graphing temperature flux and rise through the entire annealing cycle, any cases which arrive under or over mean soon achieve normality, long before any internal structural changes can occur. Avidly monitoring and recording/graphing these cycles on the array of 17 monitors is also very exciting and CSI-like, my third favorite part!

    -I won't bore you with the details of the actual annealing cycle since we're all accomplished annealers here, peers as it were and this part is pretty repetitive and self-explanatory, nor will I share with you a representative sample of my graphing technique but suffice it to say, THANK YOU MS WORD!! Many a contented eve is spent perusing these graphs with a spirited beverage and soft baroque music......

    -But, Back To The Business!

    -Like others here, I do drop into a water bath after the comprehensive annealing process has completed and here is where it gets good!

    -I Already Have A Drying Technique As Shown Above!!

    -NOW the genius of my simple system becomes apparent! NO special tools, NO added steps, NO more processes because I've all the needed equipment already present and accounted for! I simply use THE SAME DRYING PROCESS AS WITH THE MEK!!

    -But with the addition of a final gentle cleansing rinse after the agitation (and hopefully ultrasonic, soon!) cooling cycle.

    Brilliant! The only difference is that now I must remember to add a fluorescing agent to my final rinse, easily done as I've fluorescing agents (dyes) I can readily whip up with "items normally found under the kitchen sink" as it were......


    So then.....




    NOT!!!!





    I don't friggin' anneal! I don't even brush out my casemouths.....but that's how I WOULD do it




    if I annealed
     
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  8. Ccrider

    Ccrider Silver $$ Contributor

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    LMAO. IS THIS ALLOWED?
     
  9. watercam

    watercam Gold $$ Contributor

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    I anneal every 4-5 firings for .308, every 3-4 for .223. My waterlines at 1000 w/.308/155s and 600 w/.223/80s & 90s are just fine thank you. I generally shoot 1000-1500 rounds of .308 annually at 800 - 1000 yds. and about 750 rounds of .223 for Mid-range. The guys that beat me consistently NEVER anneal their brass.
    The 100/200yd. benchrest shooters I have known told me that they never anneal and get 30+ firings from their brass.
    Just sayin'...
     
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  10. Richard Coody

    Richard Coody Silver $$ Contributor

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    consistency is the key to all in shooting and reloading.

    but you will never have a consensus of how to do any of it. whatever works for you is the only answer. but never expect anyone else to agree with what works for you. even the best of the best do things differently. don't let rejection bother you. hell you know it works. their loss not yours.

    always try new ideas. don't be closed minded. but if it doesn't work with your system the reject it. if it gives you better results then put it in your system. keep progressing or things will get stale.
     
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  11. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE Gold $$ Contributor

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    Youll do even better if you shake an organic, freeze dried chicken foot over your brass standing in a loading block
     
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  12. MislMan

    MislMan

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    Nope ..... gotta use a crows’ foot.
     
  13. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE Gold $$ Contributor

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    12E2EC71-6CF3-45E5-9F92-483DC298F34A.jpeg
    No problem
     
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  14. dkhunt14

    dkhunt14

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    I love all you 1000 yard guys that don't anneal. It makes it easy to beat ya. Short range is a total different game. Heck most even throw charges. While you are at it, you should throw your charges like short range guys do. That would make it even easier. Also short range guys run a very thin neck, most run a .262 which lets you with about .008 walls. I run around .0135 walls and that is alot more brass to effect tension. Matt
     
  15. rwj

    rwj Silver $$ Contributor

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  16. JEFFPPC

    JEFFPPC

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    Perhaps I did not phrase my question clearly, it was not about annealing but is it better to seat bullets during spring back or after the case has had time to fully relax. Thanks Matt, for addressing my question with the type of answer I was looking for. As usual Matt is a gentlemen with an intelligent answer.
     
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  17. Webster

    Webster

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    After annealing and cooling to room temp there should be no further change in hardness in weeks or months. Compulsive behavior.
     
  18. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE Gold $$ Contributor

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    Should be is the key word. Test it and see.
     
  19. Webster

    Webster

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    Do you have a hardness tester? You cannot make up metallurgy it either is or is not valid. I have done metallurgical failure analysis for 45 years. There is no mechanism to make any change in hardness in a few months. There can be a very slight drop in internal stress over long term. Will add the chart later when I DL it.
     
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  20. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE Gold $$ Contributor

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    Actually i do have a hardness tester but have never tested cartridge brass. I do know if you size 100 at the same time, seat some recording the pressure required then seat the rest after some time it is different. As an engineer i do know that testing yields different results than on paper sometimes
     

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