Little help please, 215 Hybrids in .308. Sorry another noob question

[calgarycanada]

Hello guys and gals
I got new 30" benchmark barrel installed on my 308, got it throated long for heavy bullets. I load tested 215 hybrids(coated) in my 308 yesterday with H4350 and RL17, using Erick Cortina'a way. RL 17 was all over the target, played little bit with seating depth as well, ran out of formed cases but it didn't group at all, .7"-1" groups. The velocity was good, without any pressure signs I was getting 2600fps with 47.5 grains powder.
H4350 shot great at 46.5 grains , 0.3" groups consistent with almost one grain of accuracy window between 46-47 grains. But the velocity was 2495 fps. I was hoping to get 2550 minimum as I was running 208 amax at 2560 in 24" factory barrel. I ran out of case capacity, powder was compressed to the point that bullets were sticky coming out of seating die but no pressure signs whatsoever. Target with H4350 posted(I tried anyways)
Couple of questions I'm wondering about
First: what powder are you guys running with these heavy pills? I was thinking of trying different powder, slightly faster then H4350, N150 maybe?
Second: should I try naked bullets to increase pressure hence velocity? Or is increase going to be negligible?
Third: try different primer with RL 17 and see if I can make it work?
What do you experts suggest?
More info
Savage action 30" Benchmark , 1-9" twist
308 win, .300 land diameter (standard, not tight bore)
215 Berger hybrids - coated
Federal 210M primers
Lapua brass, internal capacity of 45.4 grains of water(with bullet seated)
COAL 3.064"
0 degree Celsius
80% humidity
89 kpa actual pressure
1100ish meters altitude

 

[Joe R]

I have no experience with the 215 Bergers, but I do know that the Federal 210M fit loosely in my Lapua 308 brass. It bothered me and after reading this article by German S. ( http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-large-rifle-primer-study.html I switched to CCI-BR2. They fit better.

If you're not having a loose primer issue please disregard my comment.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[calgarycanada]

I have no experience with the 215 Bergers, but I do know that the Federal 210M fit loosely in my Lapua 308 brass. It bothered me and after reading this article by German S. ( http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-large-rifle-primer-study.html I switched to CCI-BR2. They fit better.

If you're not having a loose primer issue please disregard my comment.

Kindest regards,

Joe

Primers are not loose, not Yet anyway. I always thought federal primers were slightly bigger, I guess I have to mic them.
My issue is I can get RL 17 to shoot and wasn't able to get velocity with H4350. So I'm asking which route should I go and what component to change first? I was hoping people with experience with heavy bullets will share their experiences as to what works for them.

 

[DocBII]

calgary,

I use moly coated JLK 215s in my 26" .308. Very long throat, factory Remington, COL is 3.244" with about a tenth of an inch of the bullet flank in the case. Using N-550 and WLR primers the JLKs move out @ 2600f/s. I've had them up to 2700f/s, but that was hard on the brass. With your barrel length, the cold temperature should get you in that ball park if you can load them longer. You want all the powder you can get. I haven't tried PP 2000 MR, but that should give better velocities and charge densities.

HTH,
DocBII

 

[broncman]

I got 2525 with Varget. Any faster and I got ejector marks.

 

[calgarycanada]

calgary,

I use moly coated JLK 215s in my 26" .308. Very long throat, factory Remington, COL is 3.244" with about a tenth of an inch of the bullet flank in the case. Using N-550 and WLR primers the JLKs move out @ 2600f/s. I've had them up to 2700f/s, but that was hard on the brass. With your barrel length, the cold temperature should get you in that ball park if you can load them longer. You want all the powder you can get. I haven't tried PP 2000 MR, but that should give better velocities and charge densities.

HTH,
DocBII

Thanks Doc
N550 has bad reputation around Calgary, we get huge temperature swings in short period of time, 30 degree change from morning to afternoon is not uncommon. I will certainly look into 2000 MR. Thanks again.
Broncman, Varget is bit on fast side, I didn't get decent results with varget and 208 amax in past but that's one powder I may revisit. Thanks

 

[Keith Glasscock]

A couple of options here.

First, try the bullets naked. You might find that you can get things to work out. The case capacity in 308 is so limited that the coating is not going to be of value.

Second thing is to try Varget. Depending on your seating depth and resultant case capacity, you could get the velocity you want.

Last idea, don't be afraid to jam (I mean touching the lands) with hybrids. If you push them .010 into the lands, you get more room for powder, and your higher starting pressure might make the h4350 work for you. You might find that being into the lands with naked bullets works best - an experiment is in order.

 

[skiutah02]

The above advice is very good. I will add that if your barrel is actually new, my last two match barrels increased velocities 30-50 fps with same load after 150-200 rounds down the tube (in 223). My proj were not moly coated, however. I've seen other's comments observing the same effect (in other calibers). Something to think about. Drew

 

[calgarycanada]

Thanks guys, I will try those ideas on next range trip.

 

[Joe R]

At the risk of sounding ignorant, other than wind protection, what is the main attraction to the 215 grains? How is the recoil compared to the 185 hybrids?

Joe

 

[jonbearman]

How far are you going to shoot with the 215's? If you are not shooting over 600 yards I don't see why such a heavy bullet.

 

[calgarycanada]

I'll be shooting it in FTR 900 meters. Higher BC is always beneficial, especially in switching winds.
I'm not too sensitive to recoil, to me it's not bad at all. Last year I shot 208 amax and don't find recoil annoying, rifle has decent amount of torque so wider bipod is a must.

 

[cmillard]

how far out are you shooting? if only 100 yards, may want to try shooting a little farther out to give your bullet a chance to settle down a bit with that re-17 load. also, try getting a bunch of Lake City .308 brass. in my experience, LC has had the higher internal volume of brass I have tried in my .223, this may not be the case for .308 but it is worth a shot. might want to try imr 4320 as well

 

[r bose]

how far out are you shooting? if only 100 yards, may want to try shooting a little farther out to give your bullet a chance to settle down a bit with that re-17 load. also, try getting a bunch of Lake City .308 brass. in my experience, LC has had the higher internal volume of brass I have tried in my .223, this may not be the case for .308 but it is worth a shot. might want to try imr 4320 as well

I agree with everything said above. I shoot 208 Amax naked, BR-2, w/46.5g R-17. At 100 yds it was nothing special. At 300 it shot 1 1/2 inches regular and at 600 it hammers. MV is 2650 FPS w/ 26", 10-TW Hart barrel. Also, when using VLD bullets I always start testing with bullets jammed 15 thou. Old school thinking is jamming usually gives better groups with VLD's but I've had on occasion seen VLD's jumping shoot better but not very often.

 

[RPAJAY]

I started load development with the 215s / varget a few weeks ago, I went straight to the 1000y line with 4 charges and shot the following groups:
6in, 7.5in, 2.75in and 2.5in.
I was previously zeroed with 185g Jugs so the following week I wanted to get my 100y Zero with the 215s. After shooting the best 2 loads again @ 1000y (both 1/4 - 1/3 MOA vertical) I went to the 100y line to get my zero - I could not get a group less than 1.25in, 4 shots formed a perfect square.
Point I'm making is maybe you should try R17 @ 1000y before writing it off based on 100y results.

 

[calgarycanada]

That's interesting observation about short range vs long range grouping. Bryan Litz's latest test of "shoot through target" about bullets grouping better at long range then short range does not agree with your observation. Not saying it doesn't happen but I have never seen a load shoot great at long distance but crapy at short(apparently Bryan hasn't either, he shoots atleast 100 times more then me ;D). Other way around is a different story, due to velocity variation etc a load may shoot great at 100 but may not keep up at 600-1000.
My next step is to try and scrub the bore and shoot bullets naked with H4350, IMR 4007 and RL 17. Price of all components have jumped by 15% or so up north, so nailing a load in least shots possible is also a big factor now.

 

[barefooter56]

calgarycanada,
You may not get our 215 HYBRIDS to group at 100 yards. With their long nose section it may be 200-300 yards before they fully stabilize. Also you are doing your load testing in cold weather. That may be the reason for the low velocity. Check to see on our website using the load program and G1 BC of the bullet to see what muzzle velocity you need for the bullet to still be at 1200 fps at the target to see how the best group at 100 stacks up. From the looks of your test targets its not shooting bad at 100yds. Make sure your barrel has been fouled to the point where the bullet strikes on the fouling target are no longer rising but clustering. Then start your load testing and chronograph work to give you accurate feed back as far as groups and velocity. At those cold temps you may want to go to a hotter primer like a CCI or Winchester and see what changes. ONLY CHANGE ONE THING AT A TIME THOUGH AS YOU ARE TESTING!! You should be able to figure out your seating depth sweet spot now but our advice is wait for a hot day to work up your load. Loads worked up in the cold are often over pressure at higher temperatures. Hope this helps!
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech.

 

[calgarycanada]

Thanks for the tips Phil, next time out I'll try them at 300 meters and bring different primers with me(I load at range when load testing). We rarely get good days in winter for load development up here :'( temperature swings can be dramatic in Calgary area (I have seen upto 30 degree swings from morning to afternoon)that's why I really want H4350 to work coz its relatively temp insensitive.

 

[RPAJAY]

I tried 4350 also but could not get decent results. My rifle is throated very long to allow maximum charge and I ran out of capacity before I reached both required speed or pressure signs.
I'm seated 20thou off lands with my varget load and they are running at 2672fps
Good luck with your load development!

 

[broncman]

100 yards ,5 shots. It basically took me a year behind the rifle to get my technique and handling skills good enough. We will see how I do this year using these for a whole weekend. I am not sensitive to recoil, but I did have a bruise after a day of practicing with these and a firm hold. That makes the second day rough.

This load of Varget may not be safe for you!