Which is why we provide. and require the use of, chamber flags on all firearms when range is called cold.
Incident at range
- Thread starter Ralph Littlefield
- Start date
Which is why we provide. and require the use of, chamber flags on all firearms when range is called cold.
I bought my boy a little rossi over and under (22lr on top and 4-10 on bottom) when he was 7...the 4-10 wouldn't eject the shell.. fired or unfired… I bought it at the local Walmart so I took it back... when to the gun counter with a lady carrying the gun for me that worked there... they wouldn't let me carry it back there... any way when we got back there she called the manager of the gun department... he comes up there and asked me what was wrong.. I told him it wouldn't eject a 4-10 shell... this is a little break down single shot gun... he grabs a box of 4-10 shells out of the cabinet and loads a live round in it and instead of pushing the break down lever he cocks it... waving it around everywhere saying it wouldn't even break down.. im ducking down as he waves it around and I tell him he just cocked the gun with a loaded round in it and if he touches the trigger its going to go off... he froze in place and lost all color in his face... I calmly told him to hand me the gun and I would secure it... and he did... I uncocked it and broke it down... got my pocket knife out and took the shell out of it and laid it all on the counter... turned around after a few words to the guy and left... couldn't believe it... I didn't care about the gun... just glad to be alive and able to leave...
Kevin57
Gold $$ Contributor
We must be safe. People who don't or can't learn endanger us all. I am in favor of safety first, second and third. Lets try to educate people first.
If they continue to be unsafe they need to be banned. I don't give a crap about their feelings. But, if I am 3 feet behind the bench, behind the safe line with my rifle's bolt
in my hand lets not say the rifle is unsafe without a chamber flag. AR's are often a problem and need some real supervision on the line.
Safe is safe, let's please use common sense. High Power wants chamber flags. Benchrest wants bolts out. Both are safe. all ARs/AKs need chamber flags.
K
If they continue to be unsafe they need to be banned. I don't give a crap about their feelings. But, if I am 3 feet behind the bench, behind the safe line with my rifle's bolt
in my hand lets not say the rifle is unsafe without a chamber flag. AR's are often a problem and need some real supervision on the line.
Safe is safe, let's please use common sense. High Power wants chamber flags. Benchrest wants bolts out. Both are safe. all ARs/AKs need chamber flags.
K
spitfire_er
Silver $$ Contributor
When I was a kid learning to shoot a .22lr revolver of all things, I remember my dad preaching to me the dangers of firearms if handled incorrectly or carelessly. I must have been 6 or 7 He wrapped his hands around mine and had me pull the trigger after he cocked it while we were both holding it. went off easy, did that a few more times, then he had me do the trigger pull double action. I remeber that being so hard to pull and finally, surprise, bang. He never let go of the gun while "I" was shooting it.
Granted I had shot bb guns prior to that, but it was never fully under my control. When we used rifles he was a little less hands on, but was extremely close until he knew that I knew how to handle it. I didn't have a semi-auto firearm untiil I turned 12 and I had been shooting .22's and BB guns for a few years by then.
Again... preached the dangers of self loading firearms..I can remember him saying "Remember, THEY ARE ALWAYS LOADED and ready to fire!" and you clear them when you think it's empty, you make sure, look, and lock the bolt.
When I worked at Cabelas way back when, I was in the gun department, Had a couple cases where people would bring in loaded and chambered guns to sell. This was prior to them having the gun clearing and check in stations.
Everyone should take a Gun Safety course! I remember counting the days till I could take the course when I was a kid, then I could go hunting!
I would like to also add another note:
When I worked in a couple different Gunsmith shops, we would get in malfunctioning firearms all the time that were still loaded. While these issues do happen from time to time. I would like to suggest that any firearm that has known issues such as failure to fire, or failure to eject should not be used to teach kids or other people on. You can talk through these situations and practice them without actually having it happen. If you are only stuck with one or two different guns and one or both malfunction, perfect excuse to get a new one or get your repaired by a competent gunsmith.
Granted I had shot bb guns prior to that, but it was never fully under my control. When we used rifles he was a little less hands on, but was extremely close until he knew that I knew how to handle it. I didn't have a semi-auto firearm untiil I turned 12 and I had been shooting .22's and BB guns for a few years by then.
Again... preached the dangers of self loading firearms..I can remember him saying "Remember, THEY ARE ALWAYS LOADED and ready to fire!" and you clear them when you think it's empty, you make sure, look, and lock the bolt.
When I worked at Cabelas way back when, I was in the gun department, Had a couple cases where people would bring in loaded and chambered guns to sell. This was prior to them having the gun clearing and check in stations.
Everyone should take a Gun Safety course! I remember counting the days till I could take the course when I was a kid, then I could go hunting!
I would like to also add another note:
When I worked in a couple different Gunsmith shops, we would get in malfunctioning firearms all the time that were still loaded. While these issues do happen from time to time. I would like to suggest that any firearm that has known issues such as failure to fire, or failure to eject should not be used to teach kids or other people on. You can talk through these situations and practice them without actually having it happen. If you are only stuck with one or two different guns and one or both malfunction, perfect excuse to get a new one or get your repaired by a competent gunsmith.
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hogpatrol
Silver $$ Contributor
I tried to institute this at the aforementioned club and was given every excuse under the sun why chamber flags "wouldn't work". That was five years ago and the closed bolt ARs are still left on the benches when people go down range. When I'm there I flag them but at some point there's going to be an incident and the club is going to get sued. I just hope they have a policy in the millions.
It's a good thing you seldom post...you sound about as intelligent as the people handing guns to those that are in no condition to safely use one. It's apparent you cant see that there is little difference between a clueless kid that has been taught nothing and a chimp that knows how to fire a rifle when either is handed a loaded firearm. Either one will quickly kill, it's also neither ones fault when it happens. Provide, enable???....you missed the entire point.
How do I teach gun safety??? At 58 years of age I have taught it good enough that not one of my students has been involved in any accidents. "With a stick??" Talk about B.S. if it has to get that drastic it don't get taught and that person for GD sure don't get handed any gun!! You missed the boat again.
"Cant get a HS card until you are 14".....gee Mr. Intelligence, ya think there might just be a good reason for that???
"That Kevin57 guy must be a real genius!!!".....said no one ever!!!!
Participants at gun ranges look a lot different then when I was a kid. The combine impact of video games, Middle East Wars, and rush for anyone/everyone to carry/conceal carry or buy an AR15 has resulted in a large influx of new participants who don't have a background and years of experience learning fundamentals starting with BB/pellet guns or even 22LR. Instead, they are jumping feet first into large caliber, high capacity firearms with little to no training on safety or even how to operate the firearm. The risks of not knowing the fundamentals of safety or having familiarity with function of different firearms is amplified by the complexity of semi-auto mechanisms in a pistol or rifle.
Our worst offenders are former military and tacticool groupies. I like seeing the guy shooting 1000 rounds of 5.56 at the 50 yard line in 30 round quick shot mag groups through same giant 8" hole in a paper plate. More time is spent loading the magazine then spent shooting the rounds.
Our worst offenders are former military and tacticool groupies. I like seeing the guy shooting 1000 rounds of 5.56 at the 50 yard line in 30 round quick shot mag groups through same giant 8" hole in a paper plate. More time is spent loading the magazine then spent shooting the rounds.
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Kevin57
Gold $$ Contributor
Msinc...Another “woke’” poster. “I have taught it good enough” Wow, couldn’t have my point better than that sentence.
And no, children younger than 14 need to be educated on gun safety.
Just to be clear...you did just say “there is little difference between a chimp and a clueless child?” If you have children that act like Chimps I think there may be a larger issue.
Wow.
K
And no, children younger than 14 need to be educated on gun safety.
Just to be clear...you did just say “there is little difference between a chimp and a clueless child?” If you have children that act like Chimps I think there may be a larger issue.
Wow.
K
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hogpatrol
Silver $$ Contributor
I was at our club a few days ago and there was a father and son there. The son, I estimate sixteen or older was shooting an AR for about fifteen minutes while I set up and shot the breeze with another shooter. When we got a cold range, I checked and the AR was laid ejection port down. I asked if the bolt was open. The father had to go over and lock the bolt. The young man was clueless about how to do it. Be careful out there guys.
Kevin57
Gold $$ Contributor
I agree. Safety is first, second and third. At 14 my son was safely beating a lot of people at NSBRA benchrest matches. We don’t need self important nitwits making overarching proclamations about who is safe with no firsthand knowledge and the perspective of a sea cucumber.
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Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
I have had 11 year olds behind my bird dogs, some need additional instruction even after gun safety training. Because it is a different situation than class or field practice, but everyone had a first time. I have had adult hunters who were worse than most kids, they also get safety instructions. Only had one adult continue unsafe gun handling after be corrected, he was told not to return and WHY.
nicholst55
Brass Whore
I taught my two sons firearms safety that involved loading only one round at a time into autoloader magazines. They disliked it, but they learned a valuable lesson. Guess not many people do that. As far as (former) military shooters being unsafe, most people in the Army don't carry or use a rifle/firearm on a daily basis. Even if they have to constantly carry one in a combat zone, the majority don't actually fire them often. During peacetime (or even during wartime in a non-combat zone), even Infantrymen only qualify twice a year. They may fire more often, but most soldiers only fire their weapons once a year. So kind of like cops, yeah, they may carry a firearm daily because it's required, but that doesn't make them gun guys/girls/whatever. I handle firearms daily; been doing it for 45+ years. I still clear every single firearm that I handle, and keep my booger hook off the bang switch!
I am recent club member and chamber flag user as of late 2018.
Tomorrow with 2 guests at the range. Will remove AR brass catchers for "Range Cold/ Weapon Secure" to effectively properly place and display said chamber flags.
Great discussion timing, great read, great advice.
Thank you all.
Edit: Son in law and another young man of equal stature. Trying to show them the right path. They doing well so far.
Tomorrow with 2 guests at the range. Will remove AR brass catchers for "Range Cold/ Weapon Secure" to effectively properly place and display said chamber flags.
Great discussion timing, great read, great advice.
Thank you all.
Edit: Son in law and another young man of equal stature. Trying to show them the right path. They doing well so far.
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okie
Silver $$ Contributor
I cannot wait to use that line on my kid! He always shoots the first deer he sees... Cant help it I guess...kinda like his old man!!
I'm an RSO at our local county range.(public) I think things are going to get crazy in the next few months. Spring and summer are coming. With the coronavirus here and our local spectator
sports shut down (collage, high school, little league) not to mention what is NOT on TV, people are going to look for something to do.
With our shooting benches 10 feet apart, it passes the test for social distancing.
I think I'm going to be busy trying to keep things safe. Most likely new and young shooters to watch out for. Whewww Wish me luck.
sports shut down (collage, high school, little league) not to mention what is NOT on TV, people are going to look for something to do.
With our shooting benches 10 feet apart, it passes the test for social distancing.
I think I'm going to be busy trying to keep things safe. Most likely new and young shooters to watch out for. Whewww Wish me luck.
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I generally feel uncomfortable whenever I am downrange. The term we have coined in the mining industry is "chronic unease", which I think is a good thing. I make it a point, and ask others that I don't recognize, not to handle any weapons when I or anyone else is downrange. The time to clear\clean\adjust isn't when someone is in front of the muzzle.
Unlike the news says rifles do not "go off" on their own. No handling equals no ND.
As former military, the absolute worst offenders that I kept my eyes on were actually.... Folks like us, the ones with experience. Open bolt crew-served weapons are a siren song for most "shooters". The desire to close the bolt is strong for those with OCD. M60\M249\M240 don't like to stop and an ND will often be 3 or more rounds. Thank God I have never seen an ND with an M2 or MK19.
A new shooter has only the training that they have been given, and when it is delivered in a condesending, snarky, or embarassing manner the person loses interest. One more thing.... Never show a new shooter the wrong way until they absolutely now the right way - in a moment of stress it is to easy to focus on how to do it wrong and it actually happens. Habits must be instilled first - help promote safe ones please!
17 years and 6 deployments, never one ND on my range or in the field by anyone. It can be done.
Unlike the news says rifles do not "go off" on their own. No handling equals no ND.
As former military, the absolute worst offenders that I kept my eyes on were actually.... Folks like us, the ones with experience. Open bolt crew-served weapons are a siren song for most "shooters". The desire to close the bolt is strong for those with OCD. M60\M249\M240 don't like to stop and an ND will often be 3 or more rounds. Thank God I have never seen an ND with an M2 or MK19.
A new shooter has only the training that they have been given, and when it is delivered in a condesending, snarky, or embarassing manner the person loses interest. One more thing.... Never show a new shooter the wrong way until they absolutely now the right way - in a moment of stress it is to easy to focus on how to do it wrong and it actually happens. Habits must be instilled first - help promote safe ones please!
17 years and 6 deployments, never one ND on my range or in the field by anyone. It can be done.
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