Honing an action instead of reaming.

[Alex Wheeler]

If you are manufacturing a new action there are benefits to honing and some manufactures do hone. After the blank is drilled the hole is honed with a long hone at least as long as the blank. This will give the manufacturer a hole that is on size, plus or minus a tenth, and straight with no bow. Like building a house if you start with a good foundation the rest is easier.

If you want to hone a finished action it isn't going to work. on a finished action you will be trying to hone more air than steel.

The better actions are edm'd. They dont need to straighten the hole at that point. Your last point, is in fact when they are honed, and why they are.

 

[Gappmast]

So why is Chad at lri doing it?

I don't have any idea what he is doing if you have some info and would pass it on that would be great.

 

[butchlambert]

I don't have any idea what he is doing if you have some info and would pass it on that would be great.

Don't you follow the forum?

 

[butchlambert]

I don't have any idea what he is doing if you have some info and would pass it on that would be great.

Try this:



You asked about reaming receivers. Short answer: No, I do not ream.

For this probing stuff to work reliably, I gotta have a more predictable/controllable surface finish on the ID. That and reams chewing through a bunch of interruptions has never appealed to me.

Instead, I bought a Sunnen connecting rod hone and had Sunnen make me some specialized tools capable of honing an interrupted bore the same way you would an engine cylinder, connecting rod, whatever... I get the surface finish I want and control the ID much, much better this way. Plus, we are able to adjust the diameters on the fly for ceracoat application.

C/K, as many are aware, does not "one size fits all" when it pertains to receiver prep. Darker tones such as Graph Black have a much higher pigment saturation than the lighter tans/sand colors. Because of this, the size of the bore must be prepared ahead of time accordingly. When faced with actions from Jim, Ted, Glen, whoever, I can fit them well before the coating goes on so that the guesswork and butchery of spinning a bolt in a drill press with a sanding belt against it are avoided.

It wasn't the cheapest way to get there, but it certainly pays for itself now because comebacks and reworks are extremely rare.

 

[Gappmast]

I'm happy it's working for him. He is adding clearance to make up for the coating thickness. The hone will take some material out and you can keep going until the bolt slides back and forth. I under stood the honing was to make a straight hole to a tight tolerance. In a Remington action you have wide areas, narrow areas and areas where it only touches on one side. So I stand on my first statement it won't create good geometry. But it does what he needs and that is the important thing

 

[Shrek]

Try this:



You asked about reaming receivers. Short answer: No, I do not ream.

For this probing stuff to work reliably, I gotta have a more predictable/controllable surface finish on the ID. That and reams chewing through a bunch of interruptions has never appealed to me.

Instead, I bought a Sunnen connecting rod hone and had Sunnen make me some specialized tools capable of honing an interrupted bore the same way you would an engine cylinder, connecting rod, whatever... I get the surface finish I want and control the ID much, much better this way. Plus, we are able to adjust the diameters on the fly for ceracoat application.

C/K, as many are aware, does not "one size fits all" when it pertains to receiver prep. Darker tones such as Graph Black have a much higher pigment saturation than the lighter tans/sand colors. Because of this, the size of the bore must be prepared ahead of time accordingly. When faced with actions from Jim, Ted, Glen, whoever, I can fit them well before the coating goes on so that the guesswork and butchery of spinning a bolt in a drill press with a sanding belt against it are avoided.

It wasn't the cheapest way to get there, but it certainly pays for itself now because comebacks and reworks are extremely rare.

This from LRI is what got me asking questions. It seems a good way to cut the id oversized to “straighten up the action bore and align the bolt race to the the face/threads/lug abutments you have either cut first or after honing the action bore. I’m not really sure this is a better way or not relative to reaming like I know many here do. It’s why I’m asking those who have experience.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

When ports are cut, actions warp. Period. You have to have a straight hole square to the lug seats, threads and face. This is where customs and factory actions lack. The hone straightens the hole, it doesnt square it to the front of the action. This is why posts about how heavy, expensive, or accurate the cnc machines that make actions are, are funny. They cant stop warp Thats why we work on them

 

[Shrek]

When ports are cut, actions warp. Period. You have to have a straight hole square to the lug seats, threads and face. This is where customs and factory actions lack. The hone straightens the hole, it doesnt square it to the front of the action. This is why posts about how heavy, expensive, or accurate the cnc machines that make actions are, are funny. They cant stop warp Thats why we work on them

I’ve never seen a sunnen hone in action so I have zero understanding. I’m aware that most actions are slightly warped but I’m trying to understand if you can work the hole oversized to work it into alignment with the the work you do to square up the front end of the action. Then either a new larger bolt or bump the original bolt to fit. The people I would expect to know seem to be avoiding directly answering or I’m posing the question wrong. Looking at a sunnen hone in the local CL I don’t see how you would fixture the action so you could use the hone to cut accurately. I just don’t know and genuinely want to learn and understand. I may be able to set up my machines in a month or so at my friends warehouse. I’m going to start wrecking barrels and actions just as soon as I can and want to know if honing is a better way for me to wreck an action or two learning

 

[DaveTooley]

The way LRI probes the bore of the action before any machine work. Think align both ends. He considers an absolutely straight uniform hole necessary. Does he achieve that? I'm not sure he does. Does he get close. I have no doubt he does.
As he has gotten deeper into the weeds he gets deeper into the weeds.
I'm getting flash backs to "Apocalypse Now" for some reason.

 

[Shrek]

The way LRI probes the bore of the action before any machine work. Think align both ends. He considers an absolutely straight uniform hole necessary. Does he achieve that? I'm not sure he does. Does he get close. I have no doubt he does.
As he has gotten deeper into the weeds he gets deeper into the weeds.
I'm getting flash backs to "Apocalypse Now" for some reason.

However close he gets I respect the drive to get as far up the river as he can. I suspect he’s getting really close.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I’ve never seen a sunnen hone in action so I have zero understanding. I’m aware that most actions are slightly warped but I’m trying to understand if you can work the hole oversized to work it into alignment with the the work you do to square up the front end of the action. Then either a new larger bolt or bump the original bolt to fit. The people I would expect to know seem to be avoiding directly answering or I’m posing the question wrong. Looking at a sunnen hone in the local CL I don’t see how you would fixture the action so you could use the hone to cut accurately. I just don’t know and genuinely want to learn and understand. I may be able to set up my machines in a month or so at my friends warehouse. I’m going to start wrecking barrels and actions just as soon as I can and want to know if honing is a better way for me to wreck an action or two learning

The goal is to achieve 100% lug contact with square faces, and concentric threads. If your going to probe an action bore then you need a very accurate bore to work from. Same goes for if you use a mandrel with only 2 contact points, like the ones with bushings. A full diameter mandrel will find center of a warped bore and you can work from that. If you want to fit a bolt very close, then honing the bore will be a benefit. If your using the factory bolt, you wont see any benefit from honing the bore, it will not produce better lug contact, or more true faces or threads and thats where the accuracy comes from.

 

[butchlambert]

The goal is to achieve 100% lug contact with square faces, and concentric threads. If your going to probe an action bore then you need a very accurate bore to work from. Same goes for if you use a mandrel with only 2 contact points, like the ones with bushings. A full diameter mandrel will find center of a warped bore and you can work from that. If you want to fit a bolt very close, then honing the bore will be a benefit. If your using the factory bolt, you wont see any benefit from honing the bore, it will not produce better lug contact, or more true faces or threads and thats where the accuracy comes from.

Dave, if you bushed the OD of your factory bolt you could achieve what you are looking for, but not with the OD of the factory bolt body.

 

[butchlambert]

I'm happy it's working for him. He is adding clearance to make up for the coating thickness. The hone will take some material out and you can keep going until the bolt slides back and forth. I under stood the honing was to make a straight hole to a tight tolerance. In a Remington action you have wide areas, narrow areas and areas where it only touches on one side. So I stand on my first statement it won't create good geometry. But it does what he needs and that is the important thing

No, he is not adding clearance for coating thickness. He is straightening the hole and also "allowing" for coating thickness.
Dave, in the olden days we used the Sunnen hone to lap a precise fit hole.

 

[Gappmast]

No, he is not adding clearance for coating thickness. He is straightening the hole and also "allowing" for coating thickness.
Dave, in the olden days we used the Sunnen hone to lap a precise fit hole.

A Sunnen hone is a very good tool but not all parts are going to have the same results when honed. The configuration can effect the outcome. If you have a .700" Diameter X 1" Long X .250" wall steel bushing I would expect up to 50 mil round and a tenth taper running production.

The 700 action Has two slots that are about .450" wide each. Sunnen recommends their key way mandrel, in that range, for a maximum slot width of .218". There is a lot of difference between .218" and .900". The action is not a straight hole it is more like two holes in tandem. Tandem holes can be honed in alignment but Sunnen will tell you it can only be done one of two ways. one was is to have a stone length at least twice as long as the center to center distance of the tandems. The other is to remove the center section of stone and guide shoe. The mandrel still has to be as long as the part and you have to calculate how much to remove.

Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. Chad is making the hone work on a difficult job. He has a good shop and does good work. I'm just pointing out what you can expect from a hone on difficult jobs.

 

[geo.ulrich]

which is why a lap is easier...

 

[Gappmast]

which is why a lap is easier...

I'm not a fan of Lapping, BUT a lap is better suited to the configuration of the Remington style action.
The down side of a lap is it is messy, even more so than a hone, and slow.

 

[geo.ulrich]

yep they are both kind of nasty jobs, the difference is a lap will straighten a warped hole a hone will somewhat straighten a warped hole.

 

[plainfield]

I owned an automotive machine shop for 8yrs prior to making the jump to rifle building. When I was learning the finer points of action truing I used a king ping hone mandrel on my Sunnen rod hone to uniform the bolt body raceway in the actions to assure proper fit of the tapered bushings on a truing mandrel. I used homemade OD ground mandrels as my pin gauges as it’s very hard to bore gauge an interrupted cylinder like an action raceway so I could hit an accurate bore diameter to match the sleeve diameter of the mating bolt used in the particular action. The kingpin hone worked very well as it’s designed to skip over large voids with 200 degree alignment shoes and an asymmetric honing Stone. This was my very first step in truing an action. As far as acquiring a better quality “trued” action from all the extra effort. Not worth the work. I no longer own the automotive equipment and no longer bother with taking things to that much depth. I waded into the weeds terribly deep, and just found myself in the weeds. Having access to some of the most advanced climate controlled measuring equipment in the US and taking detailed stress free Ferrell arm measurements only revealed that no matter what I did a Remington action isn’t worth that much trouble. As far as distortion from opening up ports and pre and post machining axial and radial perfection the high quality “custom” actions all check that box with the level that’s required for accurate, repeatable rifles. This definitely qualifies as a picking pepper out of the fly sh*t situation. I learned a lot with what I did. But as Tooley said, I was in the weeds and that’s where I found myself.

 

[butchlambert]

I owned an automotive machine shop for 8yrs prior to making the jump to rifle building. When I was learning the finer points of action truing I used a king ping hone mandrel on my Sunnen rod hone to uniform the bolt body raceway in the actions to assure proper fit of the tapered bushings on a truing mandrel. I used homemade OD ground mandrels as my pin gauges as it’s very hard to bore gauge an interrupted cylinder like an action raceway so I could hit an accurate bore diameter to match the sleeve diameter of the mating bolt used in the particular action. The kingpin hone worked very well as it’s designed to skip over large voids with 200 degree alignment shoes and an asymmetric honing Stone. This was my very first step in truing an action. As far as acquiring a better quality “trued” action from all the extra effort. Not worth the work. I no longer own the automotive equipment and no longer bother with taking things to that much depth. I waded into the weeds terribly deep, and just found myself in the weeds. Having access to some of the most advanced climate controlled measuring equipment in the US and taking detailed stress free Ferrell arm measurements only revealed that no matter what I did a Remington action isn’t worth that much trouble. As far as distortion from opening up ports and pre and post machining axial and radial perfection the high quality “custom” actions all check that box with the level that’s required for accurate, repeatable rifles. This definitely qualifies as a picking pepper out of the fly sh*t situation. I learned a lot with what I did. But as Tooley said, I was in the weeds and that’s where I found myself.

Yes sir! To take a Remington receiver to in all aspect as a custom. The worked required will make it as expensive as a custom.

 

[Shrek]

I owned an automotive machine shop for 8yrs prior to making the jump to rifle building. When I was learning the finer points of action truing I used a king ping hone mandrel on my Sunnen rod hone to uniform the bolt body raceway in the actions to assure proper fit of the tapered bushings on a truing mandrel. I used homemade OD ground mandrels as my pin gauges as it’s very hard to bore gauge an interrupted cylinder like an action raceway so I could hit an accurate bore diameter to match the sleeve diameter of the mating bolt used in the particular action. The kingpin hone worked very well as it’s designed to skip over large voids with 200 degree alignment shoes and an asymmetric honing Stone. This was my very first step in truing an action. As far as acquiring a better quality “trued” action from all the extra effort. Not worth the work. I no longer own the automotive equipment and no longer bother with taking things to that much depth. I waded into the weeds terribly deep, and just found myself in the weeds. Having access to some of the most advanced climate controlled measuring equipment in the US and taking detailed stress free Ferrell arm measurements only revealed that no matter what I did a Remington action isn’t worth that much trouble. As far as distortion from opening up ports and pre and post machining axial and radial perfection the high quality “custom” actions all check that box with the level that’s required for accurate, repeatable rifles. This definitely qualifies as a picking pepper out of the fly sh*t situation. I learned a lot with what I did. But as Tooley said, I was in the weeds and that’s where I found myself.

THANK YOU ! This is the exact real world experience I was looking for. You did it. Learned that for you it wasn’t worth the effort for the results. Much appreciated !