Hardcast vs linotype are they the same.

Discussion in 'Reloading Forum (All Calibers)' started by AJC, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. AJC

    AJC

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    I keep seeing these Underwood ammo videos on hard cast bullets. Any one do any hardness tests on one of these and have any information if they are some secrect squirl formula. Seems like they are just linotype that may or not be water quenched.
     
  2. nicholst55

    nicholst55 Brass Whore

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    I'll probably piss someone off, but here we go. The term "hardcast" has no definite meaning or hardness value. It is strictly a marketing term used by commercial bullet casters. The simple truth is that 'hard' lead bullets, as in 'harder than woodpecker lips,' resist deformation during shipping and handling better than softer bullets do. Same thing with the hard, waxy lube that commercial casters use - it's used because it stays in the lube grooves, not because it's superior to a softer lube. Most (not all) commercial cast bullets are TOO HARD for about 85% of handgun use. Most commercial cast bullets are as hard as, or harder than, Linotype.

    These bullets will not obturate to seal the bore when fired, which causes gas cutting, which causes leading. Same thing if your revolver has any thread choke/constriction. Once the bullet is squeezed down to fit through that constriction, it will not obturate again and you'll get gas cutting and leading.

    Bullet alloy needs to be matched to the intended pressure of the load. If your bullets fit your gun and the alloy is matched to the pressure of your load, you won't get any leading except in rare circumstances. Very few applications call for an alloy harder than about 15 on the Brinell hardness scale. Many commercial cast bullets run 21-24; Linotype has a nominal hardness of 22.
     
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  3. joed49

    joed49

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    You need to do some reading on lead formulas. There are 3 things that make up a mix of lead. They are lead, tin and antimony. Different percentages will make the lead harder or softer. If I remember correctly linotype is made of lead, 4% tin and I think 12% antimony.

    In my youth I worked in the printing trade and used to have to ensure the lead was of the correct formula for what it was to be used for.

    It's been years since I dabbled in the mixes but do some google searches and you will learn a lot.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
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  4. Racebannon3855

    Racebannon3855

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    In my experience, straight linotype and/or straight monotype bullets will shatter on impact. In the early 90s I lived in a shotgun or handgun only area and I shot a Contender in 430 JDJ. Driving the 240 gr Keith Bullet cast from monotype over 2000 fps would draw a crowd when shooting water jugs. For hunting I used hardcast 280 gr LBTs that I bought.

    I bought some 338 Cal 250 grain from Montana Cast Bullet Company last winter and at over 2000 from my 338-06 they did not break up when shot into locust and oak.

    I have never used Underwoods stuff. Call them and ask, cast bullet folks are generally easy to talk with.
     
  5. Rsadams

    Rsadams

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    There's an article on this in this months blue press from Dillon....
     
  6. Uncle Ed

    Uncle Ed

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  7. 243winxb

    243winxb

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    Underwood list 21 BHN on there website. 20190222_084759.jpg 92 2 6 is hard cast @ bhn 15.

    There are 2 ways to get to bhn 21.
    1. Linotype.
    2. Oven heat treating/water cooling the cast bullets that contains a minimum of 2% antimony.

    Info all available on the internet.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  8. AJC

    AJC

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    I have been reading a lot and plan to cast. I was wondering how bad those hard cast were leading up those glock 20 barrels. I have a Lee tester and plan to do as the first poster indicates and match bhn to velocity. I'm guessing people dont practice with this ammo or love cleaning.
     
  9. Dusty Stevens

    Dusty Stevens COVFEFE- Thread Derail Crew Gold $$ Contributor

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    Glock 20 is bad tough on cast bullets. I like to keep them under 1000. I know i had very bad luck melting bullets in the barrel even with checks. This replacement barrel will only get jacketed bullets and ill save the cast for the 38 and 45
     
  10. Rsadams

    Rsadams

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    Glock doesn't recommend shooting lead bullets in their barrels because of the rifling.... Might want to look into it before doing it.... Heard it can build up and you can get an over pressure.... I shoot alot of Glocks but have never shot lead bullets in them.... I do shoot Berry's bullets in them ( thousands ) with no problems...
     
  11. nicholst55

    nicholst55 Brass Whore

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    T
    There is an entire 32-page sticky thread over at the Cast Boolits forum on shooting cast in Glocks. Some folks have success, some don't. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?33855-The-Truth-about-Glocks-and-Cast
     
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  12. tommeboy

    tommeboy

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    If the bullet is fit right the bullet does not have to obturate. I have shot over 1.5K through my G19. Not once have I had a leaded bore. The first 1K were traditional lubed, the rest have been powder coated. I had over 15K through my 1911. The only time it ever leaded was when using ALOX on the bullets. And that was at the muzzle end. Just was not enough lube to make it out the barrel. Switched to TAC1 and have not had it happen since.

    Ran my 308Win up to 2450fps with the TAC1 also. That was A 188GR bullet. These were all cast at 14 bhn. The 9mm and 45 are cast at 10 bhn.
     
  13. AJC

    AJC

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    I dont run factory barrels for a couple of reasons lead, and loose chamber being my top two. My storm lake drop ins have zero issues. I dont have a g20 but most of the 10mm hard cast videos I see, people are running factory barrels and i would not do that. Regular #2 works great with no lead issues. I normally chase a session with a mag of jacketed.
     
  14. akajun

    akajun

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    This is the most informative post of the thread . Also a lot of the reason that commercial casters bullets are so hard is they buy a pre mixed alloy that contains too much tin, but reduces the amount of reject bullets they cast.
    I’ve never had the need for anything harder that the Lyman #2 alloy for centerfire rifles like 3006 going 2k+ or 20-1 for magnum handgun. For things like 38 and 45, straight ww alloy. I never contend with leading as I size my bullets properly
     
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  15. XTR

    XTR

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    Oh man, I can't even start here.

    Shooting BPCRs you either get a self taught MS in cast lead or you don't get it to work well.

    Go to http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ and start reading. There is more than a little to it.

    That said, about 30 yrs ago when I was shooting IPSC I loaded up a bunch of 9mm cast for a Glock. It was blowing shrapnel out of the barrel in about 2 magazines. The inside of the barrel looked like a clogged sewer pipe, there were no visible lands. Took a few hours and a stainless brush to get it out. Never put cast in one since.
     
  16. Knotwild

    Knotwild Silver $$ Contributor

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    I started casting and reloading when I was about 16 yo. My grandfather died and left an old shop and tools, and that is where I did most of the casting. It was mostly 200 gr. semi-wadcutters, cast in a 4 cavity mold, from a Lyman furnace. I also cast some 124 gr. designed for use in 9mm and a .38 Super I had. Inside that shop I found an ingot that was about 14"x4"x4". It looked like lead and it melted like lead, but I was getting awesome penetration. (as kids we shot a lot of "stuff" for targets).

    Anyway, it turned out that stuff was babbitt. There are two kinds of babbitt, lead or tin based, and I don't know which it was. Given the fact that solid copper is often used today, I wonder how babbitt would do if empirically tested. And I wonder how much it would leave in the barrel.
     
  17. paperpuncher

    paperpuncher Silver $$ Contributor

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    As mentioned above terminology gets tossed around and the meaning is not always clear or consistent. As far as a reference point goes Roto metals sells a "hardball" alloy that they list as 2% tin and 6% antimony. I have seen linotype that was 2% tin 8% antimony and also lino that was 6%tin and 12% antimony. Remember that most of this metal has been sitting in print shops for a long time, the guys that had the skill to maintain the alloy during the remelting process are mostly long gone and the ones that still use hot metal most likely dont have the knowledge or equipment to properly maintain the metal so the alloy can have some deviation from its original formula. I have shot straight lino with very good results but it is really kinda wasteful. Soft lead can be had for .60-1.00 and lino is close to 2.00 a pound. 80-20 mix of soft lead with lino will make great pistol bullets for most applications.
    Shameless plug alert I posted some plus metal for sale in the classified section if anyone needs something to sweeten their pot :)
     
  18. Rsadams

    Rsadams

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  19. riflewoman

    riflewoman Gold $$ Contributor

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    Most of the commercial casters use “Taracorp Magnum” alloy as their base stock. This is nominally 50/50 lead and Linotype metal. The problem is that their foundry/supplier often uses reclaimed lead which as other hardening elements in it. To the point that old formulas don’t work.

    Missouri Bullets and Magnus, perhaps others, try to use quality alloys. But a lot of others don’t and for 90% of shooters it doesn’t matter.
     
  20. spclark

    spclark Gold $$ Contributor

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    Probably not too bad depending on which formula alloy you’re using -

    https://www.rotometals.com/babbitt-bearing-alloys/

    I shot Oregon Bullets in 40 SW Glock 22, HK USP and a Desert Eagle 44 magnum until I got real tired of fouled hexagonal-rifled barrels before switching to XTP’s.
     

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