Great gun, lousy shooter or lousy gun, great shooter?

[VaniB]

Posts that focus on the importance of wind flags take away the importance of everything else as a mitigating factor. Wind flags are only as good as your scoped rifle, handloads, and the shooter's form..... which all goes back to CONSISTENCY which I already mentioned in post#8. These individual factors are all parts of the sum total. If one of the factors is off, then the sum is adversely affected.

How many times have you guys witnessed a newbie shooting for groups with their rifle barrel resting on the sand bag? There are soooo many variables involved in accuracy beyond the mention of wind flags. (btw; yes, I use windflags)

 

[gman47564]

staying focused on the task at hand... use good components and equipment... learn your gun and what it likes to shoot and how it likes to be driven...chances are you will burn your first barrel out learning this... to be a really good shot you have to shoot alot !!! practice practice practice..... be patient... theirs ups and downs in the learning process... dont get discouraged... change one thing at a time with all aspects of the game so you can tell if it helped or hurt... main thing is have fun...

 

[ebb]

Find the biggest factor in making your groups bigger and fix that first. I had a 223 bolt action that would show signs of being able to make a group. But always had one or two shots way out, My friend keep saying it your scope, for months I told him its brand new. One day he couldn't take it any more and told me he had a hood scope checker I could use. I basically put two scopes on the rifle and he was right. All my months of "fixing the load" were a waste of time. The key is knowing what the weakest link in your chain is. You will be too close to see it for a while so find a mentor that is knowledgeable and listen to him/her.

 

[rogina]

staying focused on the task at hand... use good components and equipment... learn your gun and what it likes to shoot and how it likes to be driven...chances are you will burn your first barrel out learning this... to be a really good shot you have to shoot alot !!! practice practice practice..... be patient... theirs ups and downs in the learning process... dont get discouraged... change one thing at a time with all aspects of the game so you can tell if it helped or hurt... main thing is have fun...

I would like to add, use windflags and practice and develope loads at 200 yards for short range benchrest.

 

[drover]

A good shooter with a poor shooting rifle will generally outshoot a poor shooter with a good shooting rifle. I have seen this at numerous times at matches - Morale of the story: You can't buy points, it takes lots of practice and attention to details.

drover

 

[JSH]

I have found if you ask a known shooter to shoot your rig, may save a large amount of time and frustration.

I have seen good shooters be ruined or taught bad habits by poor coaches. Once this is done, it is hard to reverse, even more so the older the shooter.

Took me a while wrap my head around “follow through”, if your a golfer you will get it. Archery, bullseye, trap what ever follow through will play a huge part, along with how you are before ignition.

Folks have tried to press me into coaching, my thoughts are, if I can’t do it how can I tell someone else.

Older shooters that have bad habits, even if we do it “wrong” do it wrong the same way every time.

Be open minded. Even better if we act as a total new shooter and no knowledge. Young new shooters from about 11- 25 seem to be the toughest to get to change, because grandpa or dad does it this way and showed me.

 

[WyleWD]

Be patient. Don't have too high of expectations for the first year or so, but regularly attend and compete in club matches in your area. Don't put a lot of pressure on yourself for a bad day or a bad shot, everyone has them. Don't make excuses, commit to learn why things went wrong, and fix them. Enlist good advice to help. There is NO magic caliber or bullet that is going to take you from beginner to expert.

If you want to be really good, remember that perfect practice is better than just practice. Lastly don't expect too much from a "Factory" rifle with cheap glass. JME. WD

 

[Leo Smith]

Simple Techniques can help also. Like proper cheek placement and trigger pull and breath control. Also forget the coffee the mornings you go shoot and see the difference. Just some tools in the Tool kit that help shrink those groupings up.

 

[Ccrider]

Simple Techniques can help also. Like proper cheek placement and trigger pull and breath control. Also forget the coffee the mornings you go shoot and see the difference. Just some tools in the Tool kit that help shrink those groupings up.

If you drink coffee daily, drink the morning you shoot. There is a such thing as caffeine withdrawal. One of the symptoms is jitters.

 

[diego-ted]

Equipment, Conditions, Shooter. When I first started shooting I shot a Tikka 308 Varment barrel using Federal Gold Metal Match at an indoor range 100 Yard "No Wind" That rifle would shoot bugholes. As I took it out doors the bugholes grew! I now shoot a 284, it shoots bugholes as well indoors and out! Good Luck.

Diego

 

[Ccrider]

Simple Techniques can help also. Like proper cheek placement and trigger pull and breath control. Also forget the coffee the mornings you go shoot and see the difference. Just some tools in the Tool kit that help shrink those groupings up.

If you drink coffee daily, drink the morning you shoot. There is a such thing as caffeine withdrawal. One of the symptoms can be jitters.

Also, one of the guys above said it best- be honest with yourself. With the right equipment, most of us can shoot a wallet group. The trick is to figure out how to consistently get the best out of your equipment.

Do a search and look at one of my earlier threads. I ask the question how good is good? The consensus answer seemed to be agging under .2 for five five shot groups will generally be competitive, except for trigger pulling contest where conditions are not a factor.

 

[Badbob]

What exactly did the scale do for your shooting? If it didn't tighten up your groups, then there wasn't any quantum leap.

I noticed that both my SD consistently went down and my groups as well tightened up. The scale is very consistent and I think that is reflected on my targets. Ok, maybe "Quantum Leap" is a little strong . . . but it was one factor that I was able to improve. Thanks for you comments! BB

 

[Badbob]

well.. you could listen to all these awesome suggestions OR instead just shoot a 6 Dasher. It pretty much shoots itself.

Could you hand the dasher to an new shooter, set it up for them, give them some basic coaching, call the wind for them and have them shoot as well as you? That is what I'm asking? Thx BB

 

[Badbob]

I also have different expectations for each kind of rifle and or application. I have to do most of my load development at short range, usually 200 yds. Here is what I need from each of these guns, consistently, for each to do well in its application:

1. My 6BRA LR/BR gun: Under .175 MOA 5-shot groups

2. My 300 WSM LR/BR gun: Under .3 MOA 5-shot groups

2. Any big game rifle from .270 to .458 Lott: .75 MOA 3-shot groups

3. A dedicated long range big game hunting rifle: .5 MOA 3-shot groups

4. If I ever got serious about a varmint rig: .5 MOA 5-shot groups

5. 348 Win or 45-70 Lever gun with open sights: 2 MOA 3-shot groups

6. M-1 Garand: 1.5 MOA 5-shot groups

7. Large caliber Double Rifle: 2" at 50 yds

This is helpful. I do share your expectations. Here is what I hope for:

My line up:

6mmBR: .15moa 3 shot
6x47 PRS .20moa 3 shot
6.5x284 BR style: .17moa 3 shot
.270 hunting: .99 moa 3 shot

I'm finding the road to consistent .15moa is long, lonely, and challenging. Is it me? Or is this the path all of us must walk? BB

 

[Badbob]

Badbob
You have received some very good advice so far in this post. I would like to add a few more that I have learned or hope I have by shooting SR competitive BR for the past 20 years.
First off it takes very good equipment in every aspect to shoot consistent one hole groups. Second rate stuff will not cut it.
Second thing is that even the very best in equipment and shooter skills struggle at times. If at all possible attend some matches even as a spectator. You can see actual results not internet claims. Almost everyone gets lucky at some point and shoots a "wallet group".
Third a shooter can never achieve consistent one hole groups by short cutting quality practice WITH WIND FLAGS. The very best equipment will NOT out shoot the wind. Flags are a MUST have!
I guess most of all, you must have the will to do what is required to get there. View it as a journey and not just a short term project.
Practice, practice, practice!

Tell me more . . . at 100yards, 5mph cross wind, what would be a reasonable expansion of your group size . . . say .100" to .300"??

Thanks for the advice . . .I'm going to find a match to attend and hopefully a local mentor to help evaluate my gear and style. BB

 

[Badbob]

There really isn't an reason why someone with average shooting skills can't shoot a rifle to its potential from bench. Shooting from a rest while prone is a close second. Other shooting positions require more practice to master.

The bench is best place to find loads. It eliminates almost all the shooter induced variables. That said, you must have a stable rest, position the rifle consistently, and be consistent in your technique. That is not hard to learn but it does take a little practice. Note that shooting benchrest competition is very different from casual bench shooting or developing loads for hunting or plinking rifles.

How is it different?

 

[ridgeway]

Could you hand the dasher to an new shooter, set it up for them, give them some basic coaching, call the wind for them and have them shoot as well as you? That is what I'm asking? Thx BB

Short answer no, especially at 1k.

Like mentioned earlier, so hard to help without seeing your rig set up and more details of it. You looking to punch holes at 100 or 1k or in between?

If your true interest is BR, find a local mentor or head to some matches. Learn as much as you can.

 

[Badbob]

Honestly it is kind of difficult to discuss this topic unless you provide a photo of your rig along with:

Barrel specs (factory vs. Custom)
Are you shooting from bench or ground?
Does rifle have a stock suitable for accurate shooting (e.g. wide fore-end or fitted with a F-TR type wide bipod)?
Are you using high-quality match bullets in Lapua brass?
Are you using wind flags?

I find most folks, if they want to tune their skills, would be well-advised to shoot rimfire at 50 yards for a few months.

I purposely did not post about my rigs cuz the question is basically hypothetical.

I have 3 guns that I'm working on:

6mmBR trued R700 action, Sightron Scope 8-32x, Jewel T (below). .265" neck, .02FB, Bart's 80g Dominator
6x47 on a Defiance action, Vortex Razor, Trigger Tech, Bart's 105 Hammer. .273" neck
6.5x284 on a Stiller action, Sightron Scope 8-32x, Jewel T, tracker stock, Lapua 139 Scenar, .295" neck, .169" FB

All 3 Criterion Heavy Varmint barrels, 26". All Lapua brass.

Yes to wind flags.

Hope this helps! BB

 

[Ccrider]

There really isn't an reason why someone with average shooting skills can't shoot a rifle to its potential from bench. Shooting from a rest while prone is a close second. Other shooting positions require more practice to master.

The bench is best place to find loads. It eliminates almost all the shooter induced variables. That said, you must have a stable rest, position the rifle consistently, and be consistent in your technique. That is not hard to learn but it does take a little practice. Note that shooting benchrest competition is very different from casual bench shooting or developing loads for hunting or plinking rifles.

I don’t agree with this.

I have hunted all of my life and have always been considered a good shot.

I started benchrest shooting 1+ years ago. It is totally different. There is a learning curve involved in figuring out how to get the most accuracy out of a gun while shooting from a bench.

All benches are not equal. Bag set up is critical. Rest setup is critical. Consistent gun handling technique is critical.

After you get those things figured out, you still have to learn how to load top benchrest quality loads. Easy? For an elite few maybe. For most it seems this is easier said than done. Get that figured out and your move to the next hurdle.

You then have to figure out how to tune the load-for the gun on that day. Right bullet for right gun with right powder etc...

You are ready now to shoot the potential out of your gun. NOT!

There is this little thing that you can not see as you sit at your perfect bench with your perfect setup-WIND.

I guess you see my perspective about this, don’t you Alice.

Welcome to the trip down the rabbit hole.

 

[Badbob]

I don’t agree with this.

I have hunted all of my life and have always been considered a good shot.

I started benchrest shooting 1+ years ago. It is totally different. There is a learning curve involved in figuring out how to get the most accuracy out of a gun while shooting from a bench.

All benches are not equal. Bag set up is critical. Rest setup is critical. Consistent gun handling technique is critical.

After you get those things figured out, you still have to learn how to load top benchrest quality loads. Easy? For an elite few maybe. For most it seems this is easier said than done. Get that figured out and your move to the next hurdle.

You then have to figure out how to tune the load-for the gun on that day. Right bullet for right gun with right powder etc...

You are ready now to shoot the potential out of your gun. NOT!

There is this little thing that you can not see as you sit at your perfect bench with your perfect setup-WIND.

I guess you see my perspective about this, don’t you Alice.

Welcome to the trip down the rabbit hole.

Ah . . .ya . . .I'm right behind you down the hole. Addictive and fun? yes. Expensive? yes Challenging? yes

Kudos to those who just bought a gun, loaded up a bread and butter loads, when to range and shot sub .25moa. I'm not that guy .. . sounds like neither are you. It is work . . .but fun work and I like the riding the learning curve--especially during a "stay at home" order. thanks for your honesty. BB