• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.
Grafs.com Shooting Products
EuroOptic.com Scopes, Rifles, Accessories
Midsouth Shooters
Bruno Shooters Supply
BulletCentral.com

Feedback on Kowa TSN-553 15-45x55 Prominar

First, I am looking to do an upgrade. I know Kowa are great scopes for the money and I would like to stay with this brand.

I am drawn to this one because of their size and weight. My only concern is how “bright” these spotters are say compared to their full size ones that has the 66/77/88 mm vs. 55mm front objective.

I would also like to hear people’s opinion on the 15-45 objective that comes with this scope. The scope will be used for F-class competition.
 
Brightness isn't where this scope will fall short. Resolution will be noticibly worse with the 50's...that goes for all 50's. Physics just isn't on your side.

The 15-45x variable eyepiece will just make it worse. All things being equal, fixed eyepieces give sharper, brighter images with better field of view.

I use an old 60mm Kowa with a fixed 25x eyepiece out past 1k and have seldom wanted for more.
 
Thanks! People, please feel free to recommend specific Kowa and eyepiece combinations.
I use a TSN-82SV with a TE-17HD 25x LER eyepiece for shooting F class. I use it to read mirage. It does the job and is pretty popular with F class and prone shooters. I believe I got mine as a package deal from Creedmoor sports. The eyepiece is long eye relief and allows the use of shooting glasses. I also have a 20-60x zoom eyepiece which I don't use as it has short eye relief.
 
Thanks for writing in with your information - very useful. In fact, I have to admit that apart from the size of the objective lens, the choice of the eyepiece is a big struggle for me.

On one hand, I admit that I am enticed by the zoom capability and magnification range of some of the eye piece out there. On the other hand, I have seen first hand how great the long eye relief lower power eyepiece offers.... So your input is very useful.
 
My prize scope is a minty vintage Kowa TSN-4 Prominar with a fixed 25x eyepiece. (All my scopes have fixed 25x eyepieces.) The Kowa TSN-4 was the first scope to have Flourite glass....way back in 1986! Chromatic abberration in this scope is almost nil and resolution rivals the bigger Swaro's and other $2000 scopes.

I have had opportunity to compare this one in a field environment, in varying light conditions, against all the glass that has filtered through the long range classes I've helped with. Leupold Goldrings, Leupold Tactical, Bushnell tactical, Zeiss, Meopta, Optolyth, Swaro's, every flavor of Vortex, Nightforce...it goes on.

The big Swaro's were just a bit better, but TSN-4's show up occasionally for $400 on ebay.
 
The OP did not state the intended purpose of the spotting scope. I use a spotting to scope to help me read conditions in F-TR competition whether shooting individual comps or calling wind for the team.

My current spotting scope is a Kowa TSN-82SV and I also have two eyepieces for it. The 27X LER and the 21-63X zoom. I use the 27X LER most of the time, (I wear glasses,) but I also use the 21-63 zoom when digiscoping with my Kowa. It works extremely well for both purposes; Kowa provides the appropriate couplers for digiscoping.

If the OP's stated purpose is birding and digiscoping, the use of fluorite glass or ED glass would be a definite plus. For reading conditions, fluorite and ED glass bring nothing worthwhile and in my opinion may even be counterproductive for that purpose as I believe that this type of glass tames some of the characteristics of what we call mirage.

Also, having a relatively low magnification (27X) means that you have a great depth of field in which to capture mirage. Some people put modifier disks on their riflescopes to increase depth of field and view more mirage.

I find that I can watch though my Kowa for long periods of time without any eyestrain or headache yet still discern the minutest of mirage. In other words, it works well for me.
 
You are correct sir, I did not state the intended purpose, and I think this is part of the reason why I am having trouble deciding and looking for input. For the most part, this will be used in the shooting sport for load development, and F-class competition.

Specifically I am interested in hearing from people like you who have used the Kowa scopes and found what they like/not like and what works/not work.

From a superficial perspective, the zoom eyepiece appears to give more options since it is more flexible, but it would also seem that these zoom eyepiece tends to have less resolution and shorter eye relief.

Add to that my concern in terms of weight and as it relates to the smaller objective vs. some of their other offerings, it is a bit difficult to make the right choice.
 
To be honest, I don't know why you think zoom eyepieces have less resolution than something else. I certainly do not find that to be the case when I use my 21-63X on my Kowa instead of my 27X LER. Certainly it's darker when I go to 40X and above, but that's to be expected. Even at 60X I don't think we're anywhere close the Abbe diffraction limit and the Airy disks are still way smaller than anything we have to resolve on the target at 1000 yards.
 
For reading conditions, fluorite and ED glass bring nothing worthwhile and in my opinion may even be counterproductive for that purpose as I believe that this type of glass tames some of the characteristics of what we call mirage.

Please elaborate on the above either here or even better start a separate thread.
 
To be honest, I don't know why you think zoom eyepieces have less resolution than something else. I certainly do not find that to be the case when I use my 21-63X on my Kowa instead of my 27X LER. Certainly it's darker when I go to 40X and above, but that's to be expected. Even at 60X I don't think we're anywhere close the Abbe diffraction limit and the Airy disks are still way smaller than anything we have to resolve on the target at 1000 yards.

Comparing a zoom eyepiece on 25x and a fixed 25x eyepiece, the edge in resolution in my testing has gone to the fixed eyepiece. This comes from looking at resolution charts at 50yds and 100 yds in varying light conditions throughout the day.

I agree with you about the flourite glass and coatings in reading mirage. In comparing old Japanese glass with a single magnesium flouride coating to the new super coatings and HD glass, it is blaringly obvious how much more the mirage "pops" with the old single coated glass. That is precisely why my favorite mirage reading scope is a vintage Bushnell 60mm Spacemaster that was made by Kowa back in the 70's.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Please elaborate on the above either here or even better start a separate thread.
I have been on vacation this week in an area where Internet connectivity is not very good. Will respond to the above next week (tomorrow or Monday.) I have not been ignoring you on purpose.
 
Last edited:
Please elaborate on the above either here or even better start a separate thread.
I'm happy starting a separate thread, but I think it fits better here. After all, it's just a couple or three old farts discussing an esoteric subject.

My observations come from empirical data and I'm too stupid or overworked to figure out a way to confirm or infirm "scientifically." Of course, it could all be in my head or just the way my eyes works.

When I first started F-class about 12 years ago, I was not ready to commit big bucks for a rifle and the glass to complement it. I was using a heavily modified AR-15 on which I had installed a Weaver T-36. That scope has phenomenal tracking, but the optics, well, suck.

I shoot most of my matches in south Texas and we have "mirage," a lot of it. Between April and November, we may get one match in before the sun really starts to do its thing but after that one match, it's mirage time. Big time.

In my T-36, I would look at the aiming black on the target and it would be like looking at an amoeba doing a St-Vitus dance. The stupid thing was changing shape as I would look at it through the scope. Needless to say, the scores suffered from that dance. In time, I upgraded to a rebuilt .308 bolt and kept the T-36 on it. After a while, I decided to take the plunge and got a rifle built and bought a Nightforce NXS 12-42X56. I immediately notice that the amoeba had been tranquilized greatly, but it was still fluttering around the periphery. At least, it stayed round. I could definitely see the mirage waves in the scope and I played with some filters to see if that would have any effect. I found that a middle yellow filter would highlight the mirage somewhat, but by virtue of having another stop, the already darkish NXS at 40X got even darker. Not a good thing for this old geezer. I did notice that the mirage waves were much less pronounced with the NXS than with the T-36. Huge difference in IQ as well as price.

Then I looked through some March scopes and bought a March-X 5-50X56. Once again, when it came time to look at the target in mirage conditions, I noticed yet another marked improvement of the IQ. In heavy mirage, all I see is some fluttering around the edges and I can barely discern the waves. On the other hand, in my Kowa TSN-82SV, I have absolutely no problem discerning the mirage waves, speed and direction. My Kowa does not have ED glass, but my March certainly does.

As I have stated several times now on this site, I'm an avid long-time photographer and as you would expect, I subscribe to photography discussion sites. ED has been in camera lenses for several decades now. My photo equipment is all Nikon with Nikkor lenses and they all have ED glass now. A lot of photogs agree that ED glass increases the IQ of a lens especially in challenging (mirage) conditions. I postulate that also holds true with sports optics. A group of optics users that live and die by their optics is birders. The more extreme the birder, the better their optics. They are HUGE fans of ED, super-ED and fluorite glass. They love the glass for color rendition, chromatic aberration control and being able to see through tough conditions.

My (probably mistaken) belief is that ED glass (super-ED and fluorite glass) "tames" the sparkle of the mirage and deadens it. I see more and more people using modifier disks on their high-end rifle scopes to try to INCREASE the mirage by increasing the depth of field due to the reduction in the aperture. I think, they're just trying to compensate for having ED glass. :)

When I shoot individual, I use my Kowa to read the conditions, including the mirage and then I transition to my rifle with the March scope with ED glass always set at 40X, regardless of conditions and I don't see anywhere near as much mirage in there as I did with my non-ED NXS and my non-ED Kowa. The Kowa is running at 27X, so that will increase the depth of field but I can still discern far more mirage waves in my Kowa that I can hope to see in my March.

For me, I would rather see all the mirage in my spotting scope, make a call and then transition to my March scope with ED glass and surgically place the reticle where I want it on the target easily and take the shot. Then I can go back to my Kowa to observe the conditions and shortly see the results of my "surgical shot placement," mirage and all.

Could this be a figment or my imagination? Sure. But I do spend a lot of time using my spotting scope calling wind for the team and that's when it's important for me to get all that mirage. My Kowa delivers all that and still presents me with a sight picture that has an IQ decent enough to not give me a headache even after peering through it for hours, but boy do I see the mirage twitches in the spotting scope.

It could be my eyes and just the way things work out for my setup. I am not married to the hypothesis but for now, it's working for me. My recommendation is to use the best glass in the riflescope, including ED so as to facilitate the shot placement and great, non-ED, Super-ED or fluorite glass in the spotting scope so you can see the waves. For those not using a spotting scope get a high-end, non-ED glass riflescope or use an MD; or both.

That's my hypothesis; fire away.

ETA: IQ stands for Image Quality. Apologies for the photog lingo.
 
Last edited:
Comparing a zoom eyepiece on 25x and a fixed 25x eyepiece, the edge in resolution in my testing has gone to the fixed eyepiece. This comes from looking at resolution charts at 50yds and 100 yds in varying light conditions throughout the day.

I agree with you about the flourite glass and coatings in reading mirage. In comparing old Japanese glass with a single magnesium flouride coating to the new super coatings and HD glass, it is blaringly obvious how much more the mirage "pops" with the old single coated glass. That is precisely why my favorite mirage reading scope is a vintage Bushnell 60mm Spacemaster that was made by Kowa back in the 70's.
I've never spent much time comparing the 27X LER to the 21-63X zoom eyepiece on my Kowa. I do use the 27X to view edge to edge as I poach on other people's targets as needed. Or at least I'm faintly aware of their successes and debacles. As I explained earlier I use the 21-63X zoom eyepiece for digiscoping purposes. It works extremely well with the DA adapter on my Nikon D7500. The 27X LER eyepiece does not work for that purpose as I cannot focus the picture on the sensor plane; it's a product of the LER.

I use the 27X LER exclusively, in competition. It suits my needs extremely well, either lying prone and trying to stay on target with my rifle or sitting in my chair calling wind for the team.
 
I've never spent much time comparing the 27X LER to the 21-63X zoom eyepiece on my Kowa. I do use the 27X to view edge to edge as I poach on other people's targets as needed. Or at least I'm faintly aware of their successes and debacles. As I explained earlier I use the 21-63X zoom eyepiece for digiscoping purposes. It works extremely well with the DA adapter on my Nikon D7500. The 27X LER eyepiece does not work for that purpose as I cannot focus the picture on the sensor plane; it's a product of the LER.

I use the 27X LER exclusively, in competition. It suits my needs extremely well, either lying prone and trying to stay on target with my rifle or sitting in my chair calling wind for the team.
I don't do any photography, though it intriques me. I do lurk on some of the birding and astronomy forums to pick up some of the knowledge out there concerning glass, especially vintage glass.

I occasionally help a friend who is a longrange precision shooting instructor. The classes are held in the central valley of California not too far from Coalinga. We are usually out there for a week or two at a time as classes cycle through. Mirage there can be paticularly fierce at times and unbelievably clear and perfect at others.

I typically take two scopes with me. The Kowa TSN-4 gets use for spotting splash and trace out past 1500 yards and seeing bullets holes and groups on paper at 500 yards. The old Bushnell Spacemaster gets the nod for just about everything else.

If I was ever going to aquire yet another scope for some reason, it would probably be another minty vintage non-ED Kowa like the TSN-1 or TSN-2 or that TSN-82SV that has been mentioned. Those scope are legendary. You really can't beat the combination of size, weight, and resolution with these scopes. The prices on used ones make them a bargain. If taken care of, optics don't wear out.
 
Denys,

I've been slow to reply as I've been going over and over trying to understand your observations (sort of supported by others and myself by the way).

In my T-36, I would look at the aiming black on the target and it would be like looking at an amoeba doing a St-Vitus dance.

...bought a Nightforce NXS 12-42X56. I immediately notice that the amoeba had been tranquilized greatly, but it was still fluttering around the periphery. At least, it stayed round.

Then I looked through some March scopes and bought a March-X 5-50X56. In heavy mirage, all I see is some fluttering around the edges and I can barely discern the waves. On the other hand, in my Kowa TSN-82SV, I have absolutely no problem discerning the mirage waves, speed and direction.

When using your Kowa TSN-82SV with 27-LER, what is your obserervation of the aiming black?

My (probably mistaken) belief is that ED glass (super-ED and fluorite glass) "tames" the sparkle of the mirage and deadens it.

Could you possibly clarify your phrase "tames the sparkle of the mirage and deadens it" for us?
 
Denys,

I've been slow to reply as I've been going over and over trying to understand your observations (sort of supported by others and myself by the way).



When using your Kowa TSN-82SV with 27-LER, what is your obserervation of the aiming black?
In the Kowa, it's definitely not bouncing around like a crazed amoeba. On the other hand, it is not dominating the view in the scope, as intended since I want to catch as much of the surroundings as I can. It does shimmer around the periphery, but since I'm only at 27X, that's not as apparent as with my NXS at 40X.


Could you possibly clarify your phrase "tames the sparkle of the mirage and deadens it" for us?
No.

I'm struggling with describing what I see or don't see. This is the best I can do at this time. I suspect strongly that this will vary depending on the person behind the optics.

It's also difficult to reconcile the differences in magnification and FOV between the March at 40X and the Kowa at 27X. I told you this was unscientific, just empirical observations.
 
Denys,
Could you possibly clarify your phrase "tames the sparkle of the mirage and deadens it" for us?

I'll take a stab at it. I'll use an audio example. ED glass, compared to the old quality single coat glass, is like a digital recording of an intricate musical track vs that same track played on vinyl record. The digital may very well be a more acurrate representaion of every note, but the vinyl recording has a warmth, a kind of a vibrating, fuzzy nuance that is lost in the digital.I have a cousin that is a film maker, they have the same kind of feeling about real film vs digital.

So, that is the best I can do, in a non-ED scope, the mirage actually seems to have more depth, more nuance and definition.
 
It's also difficult to reconcile the differences in magnification and FOV between the March at 40X and the Kowa at 27X. I told you this was unscientific, just empirical observations.

If you would, it might be very helpful for you to set your March 5-50x56 to 27x and do a side by side set of observations with your Kowa TSN-82SV with 27-LER. Then tell us what your perceived differences are in the observed mirage effects in general and of the aiming black in particular (for both mild and bad mirage if possible).

"tames" the sparkle of the mirage and deadens it

This sparkle could be secondary chromatic aberration effects that are not quite corrected in non-ED glass but with ED glass the secondary chromatic aberrations are corrected and therefore do not appear and are thus "tamed" or deadened.

Both of you - Re variable magnification (zoom) eyepieces versus fixed power eyepieces, I generally find the fixed to give better IQ than variables. However, I have found several variables that were as good as fixed of course these were high-end (aka expensive).
 
If you would, it might be very helpful for you to set your March 5-50x56 to 27x and do a side by side set of observations with your Kowa TSN-82SV with 27-LER. Then tell us what your perceived differences are in the observed mirage effects in general and of the aiming black in particular (for both mild and bad mirage if possible).
I'll get right on that. LOL.


This sparkle could be secondary chromatic aberration effects that are not quite corrected in non-ED glass but with ED glass the secondary chromatic aberrations are corrected and therefore do not appear and are thus "tamed" or deadened.
That's pretty much what I was thinking, since that is the main difference between ED glass and non-ED glass.

Need more empirical data, but when I have the optics out, my attention is elsewhere.
 
Grafs.com Shooting Products
EuroOptic.com Scopes, Rifles, Accessories
Brownells Discount Code
BulletCentral.com
Midsouth Shooters
Bruno Shooters Supply

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by the generous contributions of members. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds with PayPal. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Classified Ads

Forum statistics

Threads
158,070
Messages
2,036,927
Members
73,608
Latest member
Bluerock11
Top