Do it all Concentricity system
- Thread starter Justin B
- Start date
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
You can’t really fix concentricity issues with a tool Neco makes a duall tool!... me I use a Sinclair concentricity runout Gauge , find the high side and push on the bullet with your thumb , I have straightened a lot of ammo that way but........ but did I really fix anything?....buy good brass, good dies and equipment find what works and make straight ammo!......
wayne
wayne
Last edited:
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Imagine what moving that bullet does to neck tension? Get good brass, set up right with good dies and dont waste your money on a concentricity checker
I may be the minority here, I’ve shot up to .007 side by side against.0015 with ZERO effect on accuracy.
So I just moved on to more important things.
J
Hey Chop’just curious... long bearing surface bullets? maybe they 'self-align'? i shoot a lot of light for caliber bullets with short bearing surfaces that might have more potential for spinning off axis.
maybe i should purposely load some crooked ammo and test
Yeah fairly long bearing surface on both a 308 & a 6 Br, seems that going through a long skinny pipe with riflings on the way to the bullseye helps straighten things out a bit.
J
In my experience, it depends on the rifle. Having said that, it is also my experience that runout of more than .003 on the bullet ogive will change the point of impact on target. I primarily shoot at 100 yards. Thats all my range has. I have worked thru my loading process and equipment to minimize runout. I rarely see more than .002. What made the biggest improvement was switching to F/L non-bushing sizing dies that use an expander ball to set the neck tension. If you have banana brass, a good die will straighten them out. It may take running the shell thru the die a few times, turning it in the shell holder each time. I use Whidden f/l non-bushing dies. The next biggest improvement was to get seating stems ground for each of the bullets I shoot.
Also, I take the slop out of the die-to-press fit before I tighten the lock ring on the die.
quest450
Mark Niezabitowski
thanks papa, I have custom Warner die and after resizing my brass I basically have no runout maybe .0005 on case neck (in and out) and head/shoulder measured with Concentricity One runout gauge, I use a mandrel to get my final neck ID, I check my bullets before seating them and again I get maybe a .001 runout, I've been using LE Wilson micrometer seating die but I just got custom seater from 21st Century to see if that will cure my runout.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
[QUOTE="PopCharlie The next biggest improvement was to get seating stems ground for each of the bullets I shoot.
Also, I take the slop out of the die-to-press fit before I tighten the lock ring on the die.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this!... I have done this myself and it does make a huge difference when the ojive fits the stem and not seating off the tip!
Wayne
Also, I take the slop out of the die-to-press fit before I tighten the lock ring on the die.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this!... I have done this myself and it does make a huge difference when the ojive fits the stem and not seating off the tip!
Wayne
What is the grinding process you use on your seating stems to match your bullets?
Ben
quest450
Mark Niezabitowski
"I agree with this!... I have done this myself and it does make a huge difference when the ojive fits the stem and not seating off the tip!"
Wayne
the 21st century seater is custom made for the case and bullet you're shooting, you have to send three resized cases and three bullets and they'll make you a custom seating die
Wayne
the 21st century seater is custom made for the case and bullet you're shooting, you have to send three resized cases and three bullets and they'll make you a custom seating die
Shooter13
Gold $$ Contributor
If you jam the bullet (As in 30BR) wouldn't that be "self aligning?
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
If chamber is concentric to the bore... and 0.001-0.002 headspace. Powder and bullet(load development) I believe are the major factors.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Quest450,
At one point I worked for ATK and I had access to a optical Compariter and had our machinist make them for me now I’m not sure I have use a bullet and lapping compound that seemed to help but I’m still shooting the same components right now but for future builds I may have to give John a call at 21st century he has always been great to work with.
Wayne
quest450
Mark Niezabitowski
Definitely agree John and Pete from 21st Century are great ppl to work with, I have several of their reloading tools and love’m all, I haven’t used my new seater but I’m sure it won’t disappoint.
Ultimately, the goal is to make ammo straight enough to rest tension free while chambered.
Where your ammo is crooked enough to cause chambered tensions, shots are thrown.
'Crooked enough' is TIR > chamber clearances.
There is a loop here that feeds on itself, as the root cause of runout is sizing of brass thickness variance. The more sizing of it, the greater the TIR.
Well, large chamber clearances(and poor case designs) lead to more sizing (way up & back down). So you generally get higher runout in a looser chamber, but there is also more clearance -to allow for more runout -without chambered tensions.
That's how a prior poster gets by with 7thou of TIR without issue.
A tighter chamber makes straighter ammo, which is good, because it is less tolerant to runout. So then 3thou TIR hurts another poster.
Your chamber is your best die.
Brass pulled smoking from your chamber is the straightest it will ever be.
Every sizing you do from there messes this up. Often, if over sizing necks, bullet seating is sizing too.
If you cull brass with thickness variance, turn necks, and minimally size as little area as you can, you'll make straight enough ammo.
The seating plug issues are just that,, -issues. Same with press play, solved with inline dies -for neck sizing, and seating (not body sizing).
I make straight ammo with a plan to do that. So any standard V-Block runout gauge is all I need for confirmation. I have never liked anything about 'neck benders'.
But I will concede that the referenced Fli-Rite concentricity gauge is the best application of ammo straightening that I know of. It's still a v-block, and it merely nudges bullet seating, which will not affect neck tension.
It's expensive, and I don't need it, but I might pick one up someday.
Where your ammo is crooked enough to cause chambered tensions, shots are thrown.
'Crooked enough' is TIR > chamber clearances.
There is a loop here that feeds on itself, as the root cause of runout is sizing of brass thickness variance. The more sizing of it, the greater the TIR.
Well, large chamber clearances(and poor case designs) lead to more sizing (way up & back down). So you generally get higher runout in a looser chamber, but there is also more clearance -to allow for more runout -without chambered tensions.
That's how a prior poster gets by with 7thou of TIR without issue.
A tighter chamber makes straighter ammo, which is good, because it is less tolerant to runout. So then 3thou TIR hurts another poster.
Your chamber is your best die.
Brass pulled smoking from your chamber is the straightest it will ever be.
Every sizing you do from there messes this up. Often, if over sizing necks, bullet seating is sizing too.
If you cull brass with thickness variance, turn necks, and minimally size as little area as you can, you'll make straight enough ammo.
The seating plug issues are just that,, -issues. Same with press play, solved with inline dies -for neck sizing, and seating (not body sizing).
I make straight ammo with a plan to do that. So any standard V-Block runout gauge is all I need for confirmation. I have never liked anything about 'neck benders'.
But I will concede that the referenced Fli-Rite concentricity gauge is the best application of ammo straightening that I know of. It's still a v-block, and it merely nudges bullet seating, which will not affect neck tension.
It's expensive, and I don't need it, but I might pick one up someday.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I have a couple of concentricity gauges that I mainly use, and another that does not get used at all. My main one is an old Sinclair from years ago. It is good for measuring brass and loaded rounds. For loaded rounds and experiments with straightening I have an H&H that is very well made and easy to use. I believe that the main use for these gauges is to evaluate equipment to see if it is giving acceptable results. On the self straightening thing, I think that it depends on the exact details of your specific situation. If a bullet has a pressure ring, and neck engagement is not too much, or necks too thick, a bullet can pivot a bit as the round is chambered, without much resistance. I have observed this when working with the H&H on 6PPC rounds. If the case neck is pretty straight and the issue probably your seater, you can bring things into better alignment without feeling like you are bending the neck or doing serious damage to the grip on the bullet. We need to remember that the neck is expanded a bit by seating the bullet. and that in that situation a significant pressure ring can function somewhat like a ball and socket joint....up to a point. After that, if the neck itself is off by much, you will run into a lot of resistance and spring back.
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