berger

[DRAGO1]

i saw video of berger bullets...they penetrate few inches and than explode quite like a shrapnel...
the question is: can i have an exit hole on european deer of 200/350 lbs fired at 500/600 yards?
if deer doesn't drop on his tracks and goes in wood, we often need a dog to find it and with poor blood is not easy...thanks!

 

[potatoe]

I doubt it. Those bullets are designed like you said, and an exit is not intended especially at those distances

 

[alf]

Dropping a deer in it's tracks is a result of bullet placement, more so than the bullet used.

 

[effendude]

I have used the Berger Hunting VLD bullets for a few animals now. Mixed results, depending on caliber. Several spring black bear have been shot with a 6.5x284 and a 140 gr. VLD. The furthest one traveled was a few steps. These are typically thick furred, skinny bears weighing 150 to 250# live weight. No exit holes, didn't autopsy. Just skinned and quartered them from the outside.

I shot a Sonoran mule deer this January with the same bullet, top of the heart was shot at 60 yards, and the deer ran like any other heart shot animal. It piled up 30 yards away. Recovered the base of the boattail under the hide on the far side. Lungs and other soft tissue were jelly, but heart was intact. With the 6.5x284 and the 140 VLD, coyotes literally drop before your eyes. All of them.

I load 190 VLDs for a friend to use in a 300 Win. Mag. He shot his Sonoran mule deer three times, all bullets exited with large exit holes. All three shots would have killed the deer. (he hunts alot in Wisconsin, deer drives, and you shoot til they go down. He had three shots off so fast, the outfitter thought the Federales were shooting their M-16 at something ;D). He killed several deer in Wisconsin and Kansas this year, too. He was very pleased with the bullet performance. All dropped right there.

All that said, I wouldn't hesitate to use a .30 caliber 180+ grain VLD on game animals. I would be more cautious with the 6.5mm bullet even at 140 gr. My buck was not thick. Total penetration was about 12". As far as shot placement, I strive to be an ethical hunter. My shots are usually centered on the shoulder or right behind it, with aiming at opposite shoulder for broadside/quartering shots. High shoulder/spine shots may make for nice video footage but I want my animal recovered. I know of too many animals that get up and run off after a high shot, never to be recovered.

Good Luck,
Scott

 

[kyreloader]

Using a .25-06 with 115g Berger VLD at 3050 fps, I had an exit wound on a Kentucky 8-pointer at 300 yards.

Using a .284 Winchester with 180g Hybrid at 2950fps, I had an exit wound on a Kentucky doe at 150 yards.

Both this year.

 

[BigDMT]

The 140gr 6.5mm Berger VLD's are the best hunting bullet out there. I was skeptical at first as well, but after 15 animals (buck deer, deer does, and antelope does) in the freezer over the last 4 years, I am a FIRM believer. I've shot large bucks, whitetail and mule deer, from 80 yards to 655 yards with them and all were recovered at the point of impact with high shoulder shots and within 50 yards on the heart shots. Lung shots they hump up and stand there, then you finish them off or wait til they drop. All vitals were turned into soup.

This last season I shot my mule deer buck at 409 yards using my 6.5 Rem Mag pushing the 140gr VLD at 3130 fps. I hit him 2 times in the lungs and he humped up and stood there basically dead on his feet. Took a third shot aiming for high shoulder area to get him on the ground and it looked like God dropped a 10 ton MAC dumptruck on him from the sky

So yes, bullet placement is EVERYTHING and Berger VLD's are so accurate with a good barrel having the proper twist rate that they make your ability to place a round in the right spot that much easier. If you want to save every last bit of meat, take a heart or rear lung shot away from the shoulder. If you're worried about them running anywhere at all, aim dead center of the shoulder 6" below the spine. If you hit your mark with the shoulder shot, I'll guarantee they aren't going anywhere when the Berger VLD delivers it's payload

I get a lot of "pass throughs" with the VLD's at any distances I've shot game in the normal kill zone. I don't get pass thoughs on the high shoulder shots. To me a pass through is "lost energy". You want every foot pound of energy delivered to that animal's body if you want to really knock 'em down. The High BC's of the VLD's allow you to retain a LOT more of that energy as the bullets speeds towards it's mark for the needed knockdown power at long range.

My father in law has killed 2 bull elk with one shot using his 6.5-300 WSM and 140 gr Berger VLD's at 3180 fps. One at 544 yards, the other at 598 yards. Aimed high shoulder on both accounts and they hit the ground before they knew they were dead! And that's the God's honest truth!

I've tried just about every other bullet out there for hunting over the years and I will never use anything but Berger VLD's from here on out.

The one thing to remember is that the high shoulder shot is not a guaranteed kill if you miss your mark. You need to have a very accurate rifle and put in a lot of hours practicing at the distances you intend to shoot game. If your rifle will only shoot 3/4" to 1" groups at 100 yards, I wouldn't recommend risking that high shoulder shot past 250 yards when also taking into account the adrenaline factor and possibly a shaky field rifle rest. You need a rifle that shoots 1/2 MOA or better to ethically take the high shoulder shot at longer ranges IMO.
If you don't think your rifle or skills are up to the task, go for the kill zone at longer ranges. It's a safer bet

 

[DRAGO1]

OK, THANKS FOR YOUR TIPS, NOW I'M USING A 7 REM WITH A 162 A -MAX AT 3050 FPS, AND 308WIN 155 A-MAX AT 2890FPS
NEXT SEASON I'LL GO WITH BERGER 168, I HOPE TO HAVE ABOUT 3050/3100 FPS, IWOULD TRY NORMA MRP, WITH N160/165/170 AND IMR, 4350(THE BEST I HAVE EVER USED FOR ACCURACY IN 7MM) OR IMR 4831

 

[BigDMT]

I had great luck with the 168gr Berger VLD in a 7mm Rem Mag using 67gr of RL22. Only traveling at about 2950 fps from a 24" 1 in 10" twist barrel with 5R rifling but with 66 gr of RL 22 my 3 shot group at 100 yards measured .178" CTC and with 67gr of RL22 the 3 shot group measured .133" CTC. Both just oblong one hole groups. Amazing accuracy.

 

[DRAGO1]

jesus!!impressive!
me too i have twist rate 1 in 10", but 26" barrel. in italy i can't find alliant powder but burning rate o f rl 22 is very similar to mrp or vithavuori n 160, i hope to have luck, i use a steyr rifle and one made by an expert gunsmith
http://www.armeria-concari.com/

 

[SDDasher]

Scott:
That is not a "small" Buck where I come from Mully or not.....nice deer sir!

 

[CaptainMal]

Sure a "bummer" for me to read this praise. I just had a 260 AI built on a Remington Action with Krieger 8 twist Palma bbl. Built just for the 140 VLD and deer hunting. Won't shoot.

Below 2,600fps I get 1/2 MOA. From there to upwards of 2,950fps with 4831, 4831SC and Ramshot Hunter it's OVER 1 1/2 MOA. Tried all seating depths from just .002"off to out .100". It's a mess and after two months testing, I just gave up. Berger VLD's will not shoot in my bbl.

Started testing 140 SST's with good results and am waiting some 140 Sierra's. Just disappointed in my results and now bummed to read how good the bullet would have worked.

 

[dansig]

I tried the Berger 210gr in my .300 win mag, it shoots sub 1/2 MOA at all distances but rarely better than that.

the Lapua Scenar 185gr shoots sub .25 MOA up to 400m, haven't tried it past the 400m mark.

if the Berger isn't shooting well enough you should try the Scenar.

the 68gr berger shoots sub .200 at 100m in my 6mm BR

 

[BigDMT]

Sure a "bummer" for me to read this praise. I just had a 260 AI built on a Remington Action with Krieger 8 twist Palma bbl. Built just for the 140 VLD and deer hunting. Won't shoot.

Below 2,600fps I get 1/2 MOA. From there to upwards of 2,950fps with 4831, 4831SC and Ramshot Hunter it's OVER 1 1/2 MOA. Tried all seating depths from just .002"off to out .100". It's a mess and after two months testing, I just gave up. Berger VLD's will not shoot in my bbl.

Started testing 140 SST's with good results and am waiting some 140 Sierra's. Just disappointed in my results and now bummed to read how good the bullet would have worked.

They'll shoot if you keep testing. Trust me. By you post I am getting that you only tried 3 different types of powder and seating depth changes??? Is that right? If it is then that's not very extensive load testing. Pick up some RL-17 and give that a whirl. Don't forget to try different primers too. Don't be afraid to try a Magnum primer as well. I've seen groups change as much from 6 MOA to 1 MOA with nothing other changed in the load except for the primer.

Seating depth adjustments will only give you small changes in accuracy. I only chnage a seating depth to squeeze the last 1/4" of accuracy once I find a powedr/primer combo that gives me close to 1/2 MOA. I rarely get drastic changes in accuracy by changin seating depths. Usually only gain or lose 1/2" on my group sizing at the most. Seating depth is a "fine tuning" method for after you find a good load.

 

[CaptainMal]

WOAH Big DMT.

Don't want to hijack Drago's post but... Always read and thought Berger VLD's were ONLY good seated into the lands. That's not practical for hunting. Berger talks of jumps out to .150" to get them to shoot. Seating depth seemed to be the #1 thing on getting VLD's to shoot.
FYI I have NEVER gotten a VLD to shoot in ANY of my guns. My 22-250AI shoots .1's but with Berger 77 gr NON-VLD's. It too failed to shoot the 75 and 80 VLD's. None of my three 25's would shoot them, Of my 6mm's only one, a target Dasher, did but I used SMK's instead.

I have Rel 17 and probably every reasonable powder anyone ever used right here to use. I tested 200 rounds of 140VLD's and now have 350 rounds through a barrel that has not shot a single shot in anger. You're talking sub .5MOA. With the VLD's it shot most always between 1 and 2 MOA and even more with my 8 twist Krieger. Only shot good at real slow speeds.

Thanks for the opinion and information.

Adding also a two friends had 260AI's built after seeing mine. Both tried and also failed with VLD's. I'm quite ahocked to read anyone got them to shoot other than engaged for target. My experiences collectively have Berger VLD's a giant failure to shoot so we can't use thm for hunting.

 

[effendude]

Some of these other stories of the challenges faced by hunters using the VLDs rings true. My Cooper 6.5x284 shoots the 140 VLD into one hole all day long despite having a 1-10" barrel. I have no idea what Cooper was thinking, but I have made it work. The rounds are loaded right at the lands for the tiniest crunch fit so I use neck tension to prevent a bullet from sticking if I have to remove a live round.

For many hunting rifles, mag length determines overall length of the round. There is no sense having a repeater rifle if you have to single round load it. If working up a load for a customer's rifle, I create a load at maximum mag length that feeds well first, then I see if it shoots. Most of the time it does, but not always. If it doesn't shoot, I will shorten up the round .010 and .020 if necessary. If the VLD still doesn't shoot, I move on to another high BC bullet. Sirocco, Accubond, SST all are good options.

Honestly, most of us are 1 MOA shooters from field positions. I try to get 1/2 MOA from the bench as I believe skilled hunters are more inaccurate in the field than they are from the bench. Pressure to peform, limited shot prep time, field positions, snoring tent buddy, etc all add up!

It doesn't matter if the bullet won't fly where it is pointed! Accuracy trumps theoretical bullet performance every time. I will shoot whatever bullet flys best from my individual rifle. Some use the VLD, some use a Barnes MRX, some use an Accubond. The rifle will tell you what it likes. Then put that bullet where it needs to go. With a good rangefinder and todays ballistic programs, dops and wind drift are not as big a problem as they used to be.

Good Luck,
Scott

 

[newgun]

You should take a close look at the Barnes tsx or the ttsx for hunting they are one of the very best.They have worked super for me. You will NEVER be sorry with this bullet

 

[BigDMT]

WOAH Big DMT.

Don't want to hijack Drago's post but... Always read and thought Berger VLD's were ONLY good seated into the lands. That's not practical for hunting. Berger talks of jumps out to .150" to get them to shoot. Seating depth seemed to be the #1 thing on getting VLD's to shoot.
FYI I have NEVER gotten a VLD to shoot in ANY of my guns. My 22-250AI shoots .1's but with Berger 77 gr NON-VLD's. It too failed to shoot the 75 and 80 VLD's. None of my three 25's would shoot them, Of my 6mm's only one, a target Dasher, did but I used SMK's instead.

I have Rel 17 and probably every reasonable powder anyone ever used right here to use. I tested 200 rounds of 140VLD's and now have 350 rounds through a barrel that has not shot a single shot in anger. You're talking sub .5MOA. With the VLD's it shot most always between 1 and 2 MOA and even more with my 8 twist Krieger. Only shot good at real slow speeds.

Thanks for the opinion and information.

Adding also a two friends had 260AI's built after seeing mine. Both tried and also failed with VLD's. I'm quite ahocked to read anyone got them to shoot other than engaged for target. My experiences collectively have Berger VLD's a giant failure to shoot so we can't use thm for hunting.

hmmmm...that's odd. I've had excellent luck with them in everything I've tried them in and so has my father in law and his cousin. It's all we will ever use for hunting. My 6.5 Rem Mag has them jammed into the lands and shoots in the .3's, but the pictures I posted of the groups with my 7mm Rem Mag were shot with them seated probably close to 1/4" off the lands so they would fit in the magazine. Still shot awesome. My father in law's 6.5-300 WSM shoots the 140gr VLD in the .3's too and his cousin's 7mm Rem Mag shoots the 168 gr VLD's with about 5/8 MOA.

Some rifles they work, some they don't I guess. I always seem to get them to shoot with no problems so far. Maybe I'm just lucky

 

[kyreloader]

CaptainMal,

Here is a good read if you havent seen it yet:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/03/berger-tips-for-loading-vld-bullets/

 

[CaptainMal]

Knew that stuff and thanks for the effort.

Used some of your recent information to test again TODAY. Berger disaster again. Some groups as high as 2.1MOA and all were horizontal, as usual, for all seating depths and velocities I have tested.

Hornady SST's did 3 round groups at .5 and .6's. I'm still not happy with that and going to try Sierra's. Gun will shoot A-Max and Scenar's under .5's. I want a hunting bullet so that's useless to me.

 

[BigDMT]

Knew that stuff and thanks for the effort.

Used some of your recent information to test again TODAY. Berger disaster again. Some groups as high as 2.1MOA and all were horizontal, as usual, for all seating depths and velocities I have tested.

Hornady SST's did 3 round groups at .5 and .6's. I'm still not happy with that and going to try Sierra's. Gun will shoot A-Max and Scenar's under .5's. I want a hunting bullet so that's useless to me.

Might try the Berger 130gr VLD's. They are a top choice for competition benchrest shooters and many matches have been won with them. I am actually contemplating using them for hunting myself. I have a box sitting in the reloading room that I bought for my 6.5X47. Will probably test them in my 6.5 RM as well when I get a chance. I'm sure they would be pretty devastating on deer when pushed from my 6.5 RM at about 3250+ fps.