Berger Bullets News from the President

[EricStecker]

Dear Shooters,

Many of you may have seen Berger's latest news. For those who haven't, below is a summarization excerpt from the article:

We take great pride and delight in relaying the news that Berger has successfully proven a significant increase in the amount of match grade quality bullets we can produce. After implementing the solution to our jacket making process in March of 2016, we are averaging nearly two times our record jacket output. The best news is that these jackets meet and beat our industry leading .0003 TIR wall uniformity tolerance. Additionally, as an unexpected side benefit, they are also exceeding our expectations in bullet forming performance.

A link to an extended version of the article is below:

http://www.bergerbullets.com/inventory-update/

I have started this particular thread because I want shooters to have the opportunity to discuss this situation directly with me in one consolidated place on this forum (I am opening this thread on a few others as well). To be frank, my time is far more limited than it was when I regularly engaging the various forums.

It is important to me that every shooter understands that this is not hype. We've applied some very real advanced analytics to our process and the results are significant. I am making myself available to anyone who wants to explore what we have been doing in as much details as I can provide.

I'll add that I've been in a cave for the last 15 months working this situation so I am admittedly out of touch with shooter's general opinion of Berger. I know that we've stubbed our toe in failing to deliver enough bullets. If you have any questions, comments or concerns about this or any other subject I will be watching this thread so that I can respond to you directly.

Regards,
Eric Stecker
President
Berger Bullets

 

[wolfman]

Thanks for the update Eric. The improvements are great news.

 

[/VH]

Mr. Stecker,

I have managed to stay stocked up on Berger bullets for the last several years, so I have no issues in that regard but I would like to ask a question.

Does Berger have any plans to produce a .264/6.5mm - 140gn Hybrid hunting bullet?

Thank you.

Brian Turnbull

 

[Joe Salt]

Eric
Are these plans of making the bullet even greater in you article, to maybe point or trim the match bullets?

Joe Salt

 

[EricStecker]

Does Berger have any plans to produce a .264/6.5mm - 140gn Hybrid hunting bullet?

We have many bullets that are on our new bullet release plan but a release date is not set. At the moment we are focusing our increased output capability into getting all of our current offerings on the shelf. We are determined to become a supplier shooters can depend on to have product when they need it.

I am also determined not to broadcast our new product release plans until we have bullets in stock. I've made a lot of people very unhappy when I've posted on these forums that one bullet or another is "coming soon". I let the cat out of the bag in the past because I am a shooter and I know how excited I get when new stuff is in the works. This is a practice that has done more harm than good so I will keep our plans quiet until product is proven and ready to go.

Regards,
Eric

 

[EricStecker]

Are these plans of making the bullet even greater in you article, to maybe point or trim the match bullets?

We are in the process of developing a number of enhancements. I won't reveal the specifics for the same reason I won't reveal which new bullets will be making next and when. They will be announced when these enhancements are on bullets that are in our inventory.

I know that Berger is one of the (if not the) last major brands that doesn't offer pointed tip bullets in our line. The reason we don't is the same reason we don't offer bullets with plastic tips. As far as I am concerned, precision rifle shooting is as much about dispersion as it is about external ballistics.

Our bullets are already the leader in external ballistics performance. Adding a pointing process introduces a potential cause of greater dispersion through imbalance around the axis. Until we can conclusively prove that a pointing process we employ has no impact on dispersion we won't do it.

To be clear, I know that individual shooters can point their bullets and have no impact on dispersion. We encourage the pointing of bullets by individual shooters. You have to keep in mind that pointing done by major manufactures is done by numerous people at varying levels of skill and experience. It must be proven as a highly capable process for us to make it part of our operation.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Joe Salt]

Thanks Eric I'll keep doing what I have been doing and you will be the one I tell when I get it working.

Joe Salt

 

[dmoran]

Joe -
While I find pointing and/or trimming works well with some bullets, I also find it doesn't with others.
I also find that bullets can be over pointed and/or not pointed enough.
And strongly feel these are elements that need to be tested by the individuals, and that there are pro's and con's dependent on the disciplines and intended usages.
For example; I'd give up BC gains by not pointing for better group shooting capability, that a score shooter may not want to give up the ballistic advantage.
Donovan

 

[sparker]

Specifically, what steps have been take to make the jacket drawing process more uniform? Have you changed materials, applied a different aspect of physics, Inquiring minds...

Scott Parker
Bakersfield CA

 

[Laurie]

Joe -
While I find pointing and/or trimming works well with some bullets, I also find it doesn't with others.
I also find that bullets can be over pointed and/or not pointed enough.
And strongly feel these are elements that need to be tested by the individuals, and that there are pro's and con's dependent on the disciplines and intended usages.
For example; I'd give up BC gains by not pointing for better group shooting capability, that a score shooter may not want to give up the ballistic advantage.
Donovan

My findings exactly too Donovan.

 

[turbo]

Eric do you know when 105 gr. hunting bullets will be available again I have looked everywhere I can think of thanks. John

 

[Joe Salt]

Donovan and Laurie I've been playing with this a few years now, at least when I get to the range. A lot of people including myself have had some screw ups with pointing. If you point to much you bulge them. I set mine up using a bushing. So I know if I've gone to far. But I'm also trying another Scenario. So if it works you guy will be second to know! I showed Matt K. The difference and he mixed them up in the Sure Feed so I couldn't cheat. There was over a 12" difference and the Pointed ones were in a nicer group. I just love trying new things, sometimes they work sometimes they don't. I hope to get to the range early this coming week.

Joe Salt

 

[amlevin]

I wish you good luck as you start rolling out your "new and improved" line. Unfortunately it will be a hard job gaining back the trust of those who used your product only to find you couldn't supply enough for their needs. Many have moved on to other manufacturer's lines after waiting far longer than they should. (I waited 10 months before cancelling my order for one of your bullets).

Having retired from a company that went through the same problem (production/quality/supply issues), it's hard to get customers back from the "other guy" who stepped up their game.

 

[sparker]

I wish you good luck as you start rolling out your "new and improved" line. Unfortunately it will be a hard job gaining back the trust of those who used your product only to find you couldn't supply enough for their needs. Many have moved on to other manufacturer's lines after waiting far longer than they should. (I waited 10 months before cancelling my order for one of your bullets).

Having retired from a company that went through the same problem (production/quality/supply issues), it's hard to get customers back from the "other guy" who stepped up their game.

I'm hoping sir that you have adopted the same stance with regard to powder. I'm curious to know exactly which powder manufacturer has stepped up it's game to ensure it's customers a more regular supply of medium burning rifle powder WXYZ with a tighter control on lot variances.

Obviously, the run on reloading components has affected bullet manufacturers as well. Just as Hodgdon only makes Varget, likewise, only Berger makes 105 hybrids. I can't see why one would make it personal about bullets when we all have suffered in regard to powder.

Scott Parker
Bakersfield CA

 

[JAlfred]

Well, your timing is good. I was just wondering if anyone had Bergers in stock. I will be keeping my eyes open.

 

[amlevin]

I'm hoping sir that you have adopted the same stance with regard to powder. I'm curious to know exactly which powder manufacturer has stepped up it's game to ensure it's customers a more regular supply of medium burning rifle powder WXYZ with a tighter control on lot variances.

Obviously, the run on reloading components has affected bullet manufacturers as well. Just as Hodgdon only makes Varget, likewise, only Berger makes 105 hybrids. I can't see why one would make it personal about bullets when we all have suffered in regard to powder.

Scott Parker
Bakersfield CA

I have been able to buy all the powder I need, and plenty for reserve. Unlike many who only buy a pound here and a pound there, my purchases maxed out the hazmat container limit (weight).

When I tried to stock up on bullets from the mfr in this discussion, no joy.

 

[JHardy]

Thanks Eric I'll keep doing what I have been doing and you will be the one I tell when I get it working.
Joe Salt

Eric
Are these plans of making the bullet even greater in you article, to maybe point or trim the match bullets?

Joe Salt

Joe:

I respond to your thread simply because I have so much respect for your shooting accomplishments over the decades as well as the great respect I have the all of the Penn. clan of shooters that always seemed to be a steep ahead of the rest. It just seems like a friendly spot to deposit my thoughts.

As to Berger, without saying more, they are on a mission to produce the best commercial, competition bullets on the market. Assuming that they already do, the real issue is can they be better? Berger is saying "yes" to that question and want to make their launch when their high standards are met. We are very fortunate to see Berger and Sierra being very aggressive with their mid and long range product line. It has always been about bullets and barrels and will continue to be so. Improving on their already great J4 jackets is huge -- as a new bullet maker I sure have learned to appreciate that.

Now. as to meplat modifications and enhancements by the individual shooters: Of course we have the Whidden and Hoover systems and a few great craftsmen who have spun their own -- not for sale -- but to enhance their own game and that of a few friends. As you know, these dies and advancements are held as tight as the unspoken and critical details of the Huston Warehouse. Having said that, there has been a lot of misinformation and incorrect assumptions floating round for years -- especially now. Respectfully, and with as much humility as possible, meplat modifications have been my "Baby" since the work of Ferris Pindell and I in 2002. I am now approaching 300,000 closed meplats with the learning curve advancing with the repetitions over the years -- especially in the last 18 months or so. In that regard, I would like to share a few "general" but absolute truths regarding the subject.

Meplat closing and ballistic enhancement of the meplat is NOT a closing die issue -- it is a closing PROCESS. I see where a few very respected contributors to this board have said that meplats can be closed too small. That closing meplats does not work on all bullets, etc. These statements or assumptions are correct -- but for all the wrong reasons and the process is simply not understood.

You cannot close a meplat too small -- but you can close it too small for the process you are using. I can close meplats to basically nothing without a bulge. Oh, I have been there and done it incorrectly as well but I developed a "fix" for the problem. So as to closing meplats too small -- incorrect -- but correct is you don't have the process down.

Many assume or state that closing meplats does not work on all meplats (hollow). Incorrect. Again it is the process and not just the closing die. Of course, conventional BR shooters will see the least gain in performance, but when done correctly, most if not all of the meplat defects in say a 68 grain 6mm bullet will not be a victim of conditions as much as the unmodified bullets -- especially at 200 yards. ALL bullets with hollow jackets can be improved with the proper meplat closing process.

When you close meplats with a process, as when coaching, you look at what the other side (the bullet) will give you. You take it. Do you just move on from there? NO! When you get the process down, you take what the bullet gives you and then -- you take what you want.

BC: I must admit that threads on this subject drive me nuts. You can have a POS bullet that has great BC. BC is very important but is only collateral to consistent BC which gives you waterline at 600 and 1000. That is how championships and records are broken. if you don't have waterline BC, you have NOTHING in my mind. As an example, I have a world class prone shooter now shooting my tricked out 7mm 180 Berger Hybrids. He has sent me pictures of his groups and it is fair to say that he his somewhat freaked out. He has never seen waterline like that. in fact, his PRONE group waterline would thrill most 600 and 1000 yard BR and F-Class shooters. By the way, it is not John Whidden who can do the same with his tricked out 6mm Hybrids. These people live in a different world when it comes to the prone game.

While this is a very general post, I suspect it will get the mind set working for an interested few who want to improve their meplat closing and modifications. For various reasons, I may participate in a seminar or video that reveals what I have learned since Ferris and I worked together in 2002. If I do, I will reveal my entire process so the everyday shooter and the champion who can employ the same if they want to -- for center Xs or head shots on woodchucks. It is just hard for me to let go, but I am not a spring chicken and don't want to take it with me. Different things are in play, but one way or the other, the shooting community is going to get the benefit of my passion for improving the ballistics and waterline of already great bullets.

Respectfully and Semper fi to all on this Memorial Day weekend.

Jim Hardy
Hardy Custom Bullets, Inc.
Passion + Precision = Perfection
Shop: 770-886-1997
Cell: 770-855-8960 (best)

 

[sparker]

I have been able to buy all the powder I need, and plenty for reserve. Unlike many who only buy a pound here and a pound there, my purchases maxed out the hazmat container limit (weight).

When I tried to stock up on bullets from the mfr in this discussion, no joy.

Well sir, you certainly have connections that the rest of us do not. Eight pound jugs of powder have been scarce for most.

 

[dreever]

Dear Shooters,

Many of you may have seen Berger's latest news. For those who haven't, below is a summarization excerpt from the article:

We take great pride and delight in relaying the news that Berger has successfully proven a significant increase in the amount of match grade quality bullets we can produce. After implementing the solution to our jacket making process in March of 2016, we are averaging nearly two times our record jacket output. The best news is that these jackets meet and beat our industry leading .0003 TIR wall uniformity tolerance. Additionally, as an unexpected side benefit, they are also exceeding our expectations in bullet forming performance.

A link to an extended version of the article is below:

http://www.bergerbullets.com/inventory-update/

I have started this particular thread because I want shooters to have the opportunity to discuss this situation directly with me in one consolidated place on this forum (I am opening this thread on a few others as well). To be frank, my time is far more limited than it was when I regularly engaging the various forums.

It is important to me that every shooter understands that this is not hype. We've applied some very real advanced analytics to our process and the results are significant. I am making myself available to anyone who wants to explore what we have been doing in as much details as I can provide.

I'll add that I've been in a cave for the last 15 months working this situation so I am admittedly out of touch with shooter's general opinion of Berger. I know that we've stubbed our toe in failing to deliver enough bullets. If you have any questions, comments or concerns about this or any other subject I will be watching this thread so that I can respond to you directly.

Regards,
Eric Stecker
President
Berger Bullets

Eric,

Thank you for this post, and thank other responders for bringing up the issue of pointing.
I've used Berger bullets for years, and have come to one conclusion in my own limited testing for the calibers I shoot. The Bergers just shoot better, all of the time. I've worked up loads with Bergers and bullets from the other big three and fired them for comparison in blind testing and every time the Bergers came out on top. Since then I've stopped wasting my time and use Berger Bullets exclusively.
As to the availability issue, well, when demand far exceeds the supply what can you do? When you are running production 24/7 the only thing a manufacturer can do is look for ways to improve the situation. Which is just what Eric and Berger are attempting to do. Sure it can be frustrating but patience is the only thing one can do.
Eric, I don't feel that you dropped the ball as you said, I feel that you have made a superior product that has caused the demand to sky rocket and nothing but kudos should go out to Berger for giving shooters what they want.
So, as a shooter the only thing I can do is when the bullets I'm looking for become available is to stock up and buy as many as I can afford, and when my supply starts to become low stock up again to avoid the wait. I do this with all the components I use, especially with Varget which sometimes is like trying to find the Holy Grail. That's all I can do.
As to the pointing discussion all I can say is it depends. I point my 6mm hunting 105 gr. VLD's because in the Ground Hog Match venue at 5-600 yards it does seem to give a very slight edge on the target where every little bit helps. Shooting steel in my .308's I use Berger 175 gr. Tactical OTM's and 185 gr. Juggernauts right out of the box. I see no need to waste my time pointing because steel shooting is not the same as score shooting.
Same goes for my semi auto .223's. It's an all together different animal than group or score shooting so why take the time to point.
Having said all of this I do not see an advantage for Berger to go to the time or expense to point bullets considering the various uses said bullets will be put to. It just wouldn't be cost effective for them to do so.
If you don't want to point them yourself buy them already pointed from some of the other posters here, but be prepared to pay more that just goes without saying.
Just my two cents worth, and thanks again Eric for keeping us informed.

Danny Reever

 

[Joe Salt]

Different things are in play, but one way or the other, the shooting community is going to get the benefit of my passion for improving the ballistics and waterline of already great bullets.

Jim I would love to pic your brain! You seem to have the same passion as I do with shooting. I would have been out of it years ago if that wasn't the case. Some times my problem is trying to fix something that isn't broken. But if you don't do something to try and improve, you stay an average shooter.

Joe Salt