Berger 210 VLD vs 200 Hybrids for FTR or general long range target

Discussion in 'Practical Precision--PRS, NRL, ELR' started by calgarycanada, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. calgarycanada

    calgarycanada

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    I didn't find any threads specifically comparing these two bullets, if there is one please post a link.
    I have used 215s last year and had mixed results plus 215s are expensive up north. So I have decided to go with 200s or 210s. 200s are slightly more $$($6 per box more). Initially I thought about using new Hornady ELDs but I have heard they are not nearly as consistent bullets as Berger.
    What are your thoughts on these two say precision and ease of tunability (if that's a word). I had hard time tuning 215s.
    My use is mainly local FTR matches (300 to 900 meters) and long range target plinking.

    What say you experts? Mr Litz's input will especially be much appreciated.
     
  2. bsl135

    bsl135 Site $$ Sponsor

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    I would lean toward the 200 grain Hybrid for the following reasons:

    1. The 200 grain Hybrid has 4% less drag, as indicated by the G7 form factor (0.994 vs. 0.954). This isn't huge, but it's a benefit in favor of the 200.
    2. Due to the lower drag of the lighter bullet, it's got nearly identical BC as the 210 VLD.
    3. The 200 Hybrid has 0.119" less bearing surface than the 210 VLD (0.410" vs. 0.529"). This means the 200 will be seated farther out in the case for the same proximity to the riflings, leaving more internal case capacity for powder. This could be mitigated by throating the chamber out further for the 210 if you wanted to.
    4. The 200 Hybrid is one of the most popular bullets being used by top FTR shooters including many on the US FTR Team. It's proven, whereas the 210 VLD isn't used by many shooters in the FTR application.

    Good luck with whatever you choose!

    -Bryan
     
  3. calgarycanada

    calgarycanada

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    Thanks Bryan, much appreciate it. 200 it will be.
     
  4. paulT

    paulT

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    Found the 200g hybrids to be excellent for long range with my FTR rifle.
     
  5. wboggs

    wboggs Gold $$ Contributor

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    Brian Did you win using 200 or 215's?
     
  6. savageshooter86

    savageshooter86 Silver $$ Contributor

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    215s

    I shout the 200 hybrids. About finished with load work. Shows promise so far. Next is tuning final seating and barrel tuner. Then will see how it does
     
  7. mysticplayer

    mysticplayer

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    I think you will find a few top FTR shooters at Homestead using 210gr VLD's. Some top Eastern Shooters using 210's too.

    There are pros and cons to either bullet... from throating, powder choice, operating pressures, availability and price.

    I am sure you guess that I have shot a bunch of 210's.. Been through the 185s, 200's on up.

    All Berger options have had success so it really boils down to what you want to shoot and feel is best.

    210's even pop up in F Open with very positive results.

    Jerry
     
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  8. Trevor60

    Trevor60

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    Because you are Canadian I will offer this other option do to availability of Berger products

    Matrix ballistics makes a excellent 210 bullet. They are comparable to Berger 210 and available in the next province BC.

    I have shoot the 210's with good results.
    I have shot the last few season with the berger 200's and they are hard to beat...that being said i would not feel disadvantage if i shot the matrix 210.
     
  9. avidflyer

    avidflyer Silver $$ Contributor

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    What freebore have you found works well with the hybrid?
     
  10. calgarycanada

    calgarycanada

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    I have thought about matrix bullets but with their price almost same as 215 hybrids, why not stick with proven Bergers. Their prices are in US dollars, so box of 210 VLDs is like $67 something each.
     
  11. Trevor60

    Trevor60

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    Hi Calgary

    That was surprising 67 is costly, i double checked and 1 box or 10 boxes it says the shipping and handling is the same.

    If interested call Marshall he is a stand up guy and won't steer you wrong.

    Trevor
     
  12. calgarycanada

    calgarycanada

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    Sorry if I sounded cheap, well I am cheap but I don't wanna admit publicly. Whoops! I just did ;D ;D ;D
    I was comparing with Berger prices, I don't have any personal experience with them whereas Berger has excellent track record. So my thinking was if I'm paying Berger price why not stick with something that has been proven by several thousand excellent shooters.
    But thanks for the advice I will seriously look into trying some matrix bullets.
     
  13. Ned Ludd

    Ned Ludd Gold $$ Contributor

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    When you have whichever one you choose loaded and shooting very well, the pain ($$$) will usually go away when you notice how far up the leaderboard you are ;).

    If you have a copy of Quickload, I would suggest comparing bullets to get a handle on optimal barrel length and which OBT node you can realistically reach with the different bullets and your powder(s) of choice. Actual load development is obviously the final word; however, I have found Quickload very useful (and pretty accurate) for predicting whether I can reach a certain OBT node in terms of velocity with a given bullet/barrel length/powder. After carrying out those exercises for the 210s in my .308 F-TR guns, I'm pretty sure I can not reach the next higher node due to pressure issues. Because I use OBT nodes for loading purposes, that would likely limit me to the [much] slower node with the 210s. IFRC, the 200 predictions were much more favorable (i.e. the higher OBT node was within reach and very close to optimal for the powder and barrel I would be using).
     
  14. paulT

    paulT

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    What angle to Lands did you guys choose with your barrels for the 200 hybrids for FTR also what node fps ranges work with the 200h for 1000y.
     
  15. mysticplayer

    mysticplayer

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    There is a very accurate node for the 210's at 2600/2625fps. Proved in 6 barrels so it is showing a high degree of consistency.

    Very similar to the 200's.

    Jerry
     
  16. Trevor60

    Trevor60

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    No Worries

    Berger has a great track record and if you can find them get them.

    Hope to see you on the line some day
    Trevor
     
  17. CH Luke

    CH Luke

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    Interesting. My rifle is chambered for the 185 Juggs and 200 hybrids. This year I spent all my time at 600. Found a wonderful node around 2825-35 with the Juggs. Sounds like I would give up 150+ fps in the move up to the 200 hybrids?

    My plans for next year are to travel much more and compete at 1000 yards hopefully 4-5 times. With no less than Bryan recommending the 200 hybrids they are becoming the center of my focus for load development.

    Here's my real question: is there a rule of thumb for 1000 yards comparing the benefits of weight, BC and velocity at say 10-15 mph winds that would offer a guideline supporting the decision to move to 200 hybrids? Or more simply, is there a way to solve for the minimum speed I would need to get out of the 200's to surpass the expected performance of the 185's. Suspect I might hear "buy Quickload" or something similar.

    Thanks.
     
  18. Ned Ludd

    Ned Ludd Gold $$ Contributor

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    It doesn't take QL. All you need to do is run the different bullets at JBM Ballistics (or similar) using the correct BCs. You can adjust velocity until the predicted wind deflection of one matches or surpasses the other to get some idea of how velocity fits into the picture. What I can tell you is that unless the BC of the lighter bullet is pretty close to that of the heavier, it is typically very difficult to achieve the velocity necessary for the lighter bullet to surpass the wind resistance of the heavier bullet at safe operating pressures. Most often, the higher BC bullet will win out, even though the velocity is lower. Another way to state the same thing is that when loaded to equal pressure, the higher BC bullet will almost always outperform the lower BC bullet. There may be exceptions, particularly if the BCs are close, as I mentioned, but it's usually a safe bet.

    Knowing how the velocities of different BC bullets affect their relative performance is only the first step in the decision process, however. Whether or not you can actually achieve a specific velocity with a given bullet specifically depends on your chamber barrel setup. Just because someone else can doesn't mean it will perform similarly and at safe pressure in your setup. That is where QL can be very helpful, as I stated previously. In addition, if you prefer to load to OBT nodes as I do, it can also give you a very good idea of what velocity will fall close to an OBT node. Obviously that's not the only way to go about it, but it's worked very well for me. Without knowing your specific setup, I can only make a [very] rough guess, but I suspect you would end up somewhere in the 2650-2700 fps range with the 200 Hybrids. That is primarily based on your 2825-2835 fps MV for the 185 Juggernauts. You have those moving along at a pretty good clip, which suggests your able to get a lot more out of your setup than I can with the same bullet. However, only testing will let you know for sure. In any event, it sounds like it might be a very good combination with your setup, certainly worth trying.
     
  19. CH Luke

    CH Luke

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    Would have ordered 200 hybrids already but they don't appear to be available anywhere at 500 count. Anyone have tips on how to buy Berger volumes in one lot code?

    As I'm planning ahead for winter BTO sorting I think it would be wise to try to stay in the same lot code as much as possible.
     
  20. Jdne5b

    Jdne5b Gold $$ Contributor

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    Every time I've ordered more than 100 from Powder Valley, I've received the same Lot. I would call them, maybe they can take your order over the phone and ensure it's all one lot.
     

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