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AMPs 'Annealing Under The Microscope' Part 5 - Section 3 released 27-Nov

MikeMcCasland

MikeMcCasland

Team Texas F-T/R
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Part 5 - Section 2 released today: https://www.ampannealing.com/articl...7vdBkqCR2JLJ1tILAZ7SUuimWTLJyWRKEVA6G5K6EiDVM


Taken at face value, they are some very very interesting results.



Stage Two summary


Over sixty-one pairs of five shot groups, every single rifle averaged a significant improvement in velocity extreme spread when comparing AMP annealed cases with unannealed cases. The improvement for each shooter ranged from a maximum of 33.4% down to 6.15% annealed v unannealed.


There was a corresponding improvement in on-paper results from 100 yards right out to 1,000 yards. The improvement in vertical MOA for each shooter ranges from a maximum of 51.8% down to minus 10.07%, although that last number should be put into perspective. David White’s numbers, both annealed and not annealed were so tiny that 10% actually means 0.04 MOA.


As discussed above, there are many, many factors which can cause on-paper inaccuracy and velocity spread. These Strategic Edge results show that accurate annealing every reload with Annealing Made Perfect can eliminate the variables associated with three of these factors:

· Case neck tension – otherwise known as interference fit.

· Full length sized shoulder "bump”.

· Uniform gas sealing of the chamber by the case neck and shoulder
 
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The difference between our testing and Greg’s is the sizing die used, and the frequency of full-length sizing. Our testing full-length sized every reload, with a nominal shoulder bump of 0.002”. Greg was neck sizing only, with a Lee collet die until chambering a round became tight. At that point he used a Redding body die to full length size the case. Body sizing was done on both cases after the sixth reload and the twelfth reload. It would appear this technique placed much more stress on the vulnerable case wall area ahead of the head.


Thats gonna ruffle some feathers
 
riflewoman said:
I’m not sure that this proves a “Clear advantage” for annealing every firing. But it does show a trend that may be advantageous to pursue. I still think we need more data and perhaps a double blind test.
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I agree; I'd like to see more data. Regardless, I am glad to see someone else (albeit from a biased source) taking an 'as scientific as possible' crack at it aside from Litz.
 
There are 2 major changes I've done to my reloading process that I attribute to my groups shrinking.
Annealing every firing= consistent measurements on sized brass
Beam scale= no more digital drift
 
MikeMcCasland said:
Bumping it back up for today's release!

This time it's tunnel testing with Lou.

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/58/annealing-under-the-microscope/




Edit: Lou - if you're reading this, it's time to retire that old Dell GX150 computer; that thing belongs in a museum. ;)
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Excellent report. One thing is clear, Lou Murdica is a selfless, tireless sponsor of the shooting sports to the young and the old. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and your resources Lou!
 
MikeMcCasland said:
Bumping it back up for today's release!

This time it's tunnel testing with Lou.

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/58/annealing-under-the-microscope/




Edit: Lou - if you're reading this, it's time to retire that old Dell GX150 computer; that thing belongs in a museum. ;)
Click to expand...

I'm one that anneals every firing. Regardless of whether it can be proved to have a quantifiable improvement in precision every time, it's really not that much extra work, so I do it. Depending on the individual, there can be a number of things we do as reloaders for which it is difficult to demonstrate a measurable improvement. Nonetheless, we often do them anyhow, especially if the effort involved is minimal, and then work from the assumption that even if the extra steps don't necessarily make a noticeable improvement, they probably aren't making precision any worse.

One question regarding Lou's video - am I mistaken that he used two different rifles to shoot the groups (first had a red stock, second had a black stock)? I'm just wondering how a valid comparison of the effect of annealing on precision could be made using two different rifles to shoot the groups. I would have assumed the most reliable comparison would be made using annealed vs un-annealed brass in the same rifle.
 
Ned Ludd said:
I'm one that anneals every firing. Regardless of whether it can be proved to have a quantifiable improvement in precision every time, it's really not that much extra work, so I do it. Depending on the individual, there can be a number of things we do as reloaders for which it is difficult to demonstrate a measurable improvement. Nonetheless, we often do them anyhow, especially if the effort involved is minimal, and then work from the assumption that even if the extra steps don't necessarily make a noticeable improvement, they probably aren't making precision any worse.

One question regarding Lou's video - am I mistaken that he used two different rifles to shoot the groups (first had a red stock, second had a black stock)? I'm just wondering how a valid comparison of the effect of annealing on precision could be made using two different rifles to shoot the groups. I would have assumed the most reliable comparison would be made using annealed vs un-annealed brass in the same rifle.
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"
Lou actually shot the annealed case x 20 first on 6th October. The unannealed case was shot on 19th October. In between those times Lou had an extractor problem with the rifle. Fortunately, he has two identical guns with consecutive serial numbers, so he took the barrel off the test gun and swapped it onto the second rifle. It was re-tuned with the same load, and gave identical results when tested with annealed cases. That is why there is a red gun in the first part of the video and a grey gun in the second half.



This video starts with the July "One case – Two shots – One hole” video and then shows the two x 20 shot strings."


I think they also repeated the test 2 more times with a 308 barrel, and received similar results.
 
MikeMcCasland said:
"
Lou actually shot the annealed case x 20 first on 6th October. The unannealed case was shot on 19th October. In between those times Lou had an extractor problem with the rifle. Fortunately, he has two identical guns with consecutive serial numbers, so he took the barrel off the test gun and swapped it onto the second rifle. It was re-tuned with the same load, and gave identical results when tested with annealed cases. That is why there is a red gun in the first part of the video and a grey gun in the second half.



This video starts with the July "One case – Two shots – One hole” video and then shows the two x 20 shot strings."


I think they also repeated the test 2 more times with a 308 barrel, and received similar results.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, Mike. I figured it would be something like that. I am very envious of Mr. Murdica. If I had a tunnel like that, I would rarely (if ever) leave. ;)
 
riflewoman said:
I’m not sure that this proves a “Clear advantage” for annealing every firing. But it does show a trend that may be advantageous to pursue. I still think we need more data and perhaps a double blind test.
Click to expand...


I totally agree. Now do the tunnel test with a machine rest and eliminate the human factor and the results will have some validity. If the results are similar and I will be ordering a AMP the same day you publish. Sorry to be so skeptical on the value of annealing but historically a lot of very small groups have been shot prior to the invention of the AMP. I suppose if I ever hit a plateau where I feel I have gotten as far as I can go by improving my environmental and shooting bench technique I may order one anyway. Until that time I will spend my money on ammo and barrels and more practice
 
JimSC said:
I totally agree. Now do the tunnel test with a machine rest and eliminate the human factor and the results will have some validity. If the results are similar and I will be ordering a AMP the same day you publish. Sorry to be so skeptical on the value of annealing but historically a lot of very small groups have been shot prior to the invention of the AMP. I suppose if I ever hit a plateau where I feel I have gotten as far as I can go by improving my environmental and shooting bench technique I may order one anyway. Until that time I will spend my money on ammo and barrels and more practice
Click to expand...

I suspect AMP could run this test 100 times over, with the exact same results, and people would still be skeptical of it; and rightly so. The simple fact remains, it's still the vendor doing the testing. Regardless, the shooting community doesn't exactly have a lot of folks (outside of Litz) independently conducting tests like this; even when individuals come along and try, it's not as though they've got an unlimited budget and infallible testing methods that will satisfy the masses. Hell, even Litz's testing in Modern Advancements Vol 2 was pretty flawed & limited..to the point of being nearly irrelevant.

At some point I think you're kind of forced to take anecdotal reports & the limited 'pseudo-scientific' testing that is available, and make your own decision.

I will say I don't think the AMP guys are doing this kind of analysis purely as a marketing play (although it certainly serves as one); I suspect you'd see the same results with a flame annealer...because by their own admission/findings, they work too.

My 2c.
 
MikeMcCasland said:
I suspect AMP could run this test 100 times over, with the exact same results, and people would still be skeptical of it; and rightly so. The simple fact remains, it's still the vendor doing the testing.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for anyone other than myself but if the tunnel test had been done using a machine rest and produced similar results I would have ordered one as soon as I finished the article. I guess I still have some faith in mankind. I also have faith in human fallibility and quite frankly I am surprised that AMP decided to conduct the test as they did. Anytime human error comes into play any results are questionable. Regardless my point that many a record still stands that was set long before precision annealing was a factor. Also I continue to believe that for most of us practice in varying conditions and doing a honest analysis of the results will do more to improve scores than fancy equipment.
 
JimSC said:
I can't speak for anyone other than myself but if the tunnel test had been done using a machine rest and produced similar results I would have ordered one as soon as I finished the article. I guess I still have some faith in mankind. I also have faith in human fallibility and quite frankly I am surprised that AMP decided to conduct the test as they did. Anytime human error comes into play any results are questionable. Regardless my point that many a record still stands that was set long before precision annealing was a factor. Also I continue to believe that for most of us practice in varying conditions and doing a honest analysis of the results will do more to improve scores than fancy equipment.
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Hi Jim,

Lou has said that he is keen to continue the test with more calibers. We will ask him to include the use of his machine rest/rail gun in the test if he thinks it would be applicable.
 
Matt Findlay said:
Hi Jim,

Lou has said that he is keen to continue the test with more calibers. We will ask him to include the use of his machine rest/rail gun in the test if he thinks it would be applicable.
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Thanks Matt, that would be absolutely great. It would eliminate as many environmental and human factors as possible. 50 or 100 rounds shot in five shot groups, round robin style with annealed vs non annealed the results would be hard to dispute. If such a test would show a positive result for the annealed cases I will purchase one without a second thought
 
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