6.5 Creemoor and 6.5x47 Fake News?

Discussion in 'Big Stuff--7mm, 30 Cal, .338+' started by Grimstod, Feb 18, 2017.

  1. Grimstod

    Grimstod Machinist, Designer, and Shooter. Gold $$ Contributor

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    This is so sad. The 6.5x47 and 6-6.5x47 was clearly the winning cartridge yet all they can talk about is Creedmoor this and Creedmoor that. Why is there so much bias to the Creedmoor? It has yet to set a single world record in any Bench or F-Class category that I know of. Yet its the darling baby of the media.

    You can see here that the 6.5Creed did not even place in the top 10!
    [​IMG]
    http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/...s-cartridges-what-the-pros-use/#comment-56925
     
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  2. hogpatrol

    hogpatrol Don't criticize the farmer with your mouth full. Gold $$ Contributor

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    It's heavily advertised, ammo is readily available, it's a compromise cartridge (hunting and target), has a ton of fanboys and it's got a cool name (like GLOCK). :D

    I'd be willing to bet Hornady had multiple focus groups with lists of names and Creedmoor got the most votes. .
     
  3. Grimstod

    Grimstod Machinist, Designer, and Shooter. Gold $$ Contributor

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    Yes the 6.5x47 is not at all a cool name. Its hard to even say. Requires a lot of words. Why didnt they just call it the 6.5 Lapua. Sorta like they did the 338 Lapua. There are other cases that are just as good but 338 Lapua sounds cool. So its the king of the hill at a mile.
     
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  4. hogpatrol

    hogpatrol Don't criticize the farmer with your mouth full. Gold $$ Contributor

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    One skill America has no peers in is marketing. Notice it wasn't named by it's developer. If it would have been called the 6.5 Hornady, it'd have been lost in the shuffle of .260/.264/6.5 cartridges.
     
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  5. JabaliHunter

    JabaliHunter

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    Will be interesting to see whether that changes next year now that Lapua is producing brass.

    6.5x47 or 6.5x49 - I'm not sure it really makes a difference. Clearly it did for marketing people, or just jealousy...

    But as long as one survives and there is Lapua brass, we'll be ok... I can't see myself switching from the 47 any time soon though...
     
  6. Grimstod

    Grimstod Machinist, Designer, and Shooter. Gold $$ Contributor

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    The 47L has a large accuracy advantage due to its case proportions and shortness. Something the CM lacks. The only thing they have improved is the Small primer pocket. However there are those that believe it will not work very well. For example David Tubb chose a large primer pocket in the 6XC because it produced smaller ES then the Small primer version he experimented with. All in all the CM may just be to long a case for the small primer. The Palma I know is longer but you also use a faster powder with it and Brian Litze experiments show that faster powders are more easily lit then slower.
     
  7. hogpatrol

    hogpatrol Don't criticize the farmer with your mouth full. Gold $$ Contributor

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    "Magnum" is another catch word for the marketing departments. Fanboys LOVE that word.:rolleyes: And just that word has sold millions of rifles.
     
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  8. rardoin

    rardoin Silver $$ Contributor

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    Grimstod...were you abused as a child by a 6.5 Creedmoor???:cool: You seem to have an ongoing obsession with trashing this cartridge.
     
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  9. hogpatrol

    hogpatrol Don't criticize the farmer with your mouth full. Gold $$ Contributor

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    It's the same deal with the .20 Practical and the .20 Tactical. The .20P isn't much different than the .20T but since it's got the Tactical moniker, in the eyes of the fanboys, that makes it a better cartridge (which we can debate until the cows come home). :D While I'm at it, TACTICAL is so overused as to have lost any meaning whatsoever but it still sells more useless, non descript, generic, non essential accessories probably than any other word in the firearms industry. Tactical flashlight anyone?:D Me? I'm in the market for a TACTICAL nose hair clipper. :D:D
     
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  10. KWeigel

    KWeigel whunt_64

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    I look at it as an OK thing. Should make our beloved 6.5x47 brass more available.
     
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  11. Downhill

    Downhill

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    Heck I've had to start calling my 260 a 6.5 Remington just to be able to hang out with the creedmoor guys at the club. It 'all just marketing. They all have the potential to be extremely accurate. The Creedmoor have just had a larger ad campaign behind them.
     
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  12. Knotwild

    Knotwild Silver $$ Contributor

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    I like my Creedmoor, and it shoots better than my capabilities, with factory ammunition. I don't always have time to reload and I will be the first to admit that I don't have the ability to reload with the precision that some guys on this forum can. If I did, I might own a 6.5x47 Lapua. But, if I want to go shoot a box of $19.00 ammunition that has proved it can give me a 1/2" group (if I do my part, if the wind isn't too bad, if I'm not having a bad day, etc.) I can.
     
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  13. bradb

    bradb Silver $$ Contributor

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    I have 2 6.5 barrels coming and have beat around what the chambering will be a lot. in the all steel barrel it will either be a 47 or creed. In the carbon for hunting it will be 47, creed, or 284. So the reasoning for creed(on the carbon barrel) would be on a hunt if I pull a bone head move and for get ammo I can find factory ammo, it gives me a little more velocity then the 47 but splitting hairs), 284 as I like it and the extra velocity. In the steel barrel creed as then both barrels 'might' be the same chambering and probably don't really give anything up to the 47, or the 47 as well its known rep for top end accuracy.
    So I will beat that around for probably a couple more months tell the second barrel gets here!!
     
  14. Keith Glasscock

    Keith Glasscock True believer - Straight 284 Gold $$ Contributor

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    Who's shooting a cartridge is a far different question from what that cartridge will do.

    I don't have one, and see no need for one in my stable, but the one's I've seen shoot more than well enough for the owners to win in midrange F-class.
     
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  15. JRS

    JRS

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    My Crystal Ball shows a 25 Creedmoor on the horizon. the-history-of-the-crystal-ball-1445264616.jpg
     
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  16. Keith Kilby

    Keith Kilby

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    JRS....there's already a "25 Creedmoor" .....not an exact match but dang near. It's been around for many decades. Look at the case dimensions for a 250-3000 Ackley. Other than shoulder angles they are almost identical. I have one...100g projectiles at 3150 and pretty accurate to boot. Mine's in a hunting rifle and has never seen a match grade bullet but still does just over half minute.
     
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  17. Matt P

    Matt P

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    The problem is it wasn't designed in the USA !!!!
     
  18. Sheldon N

    Sheldon N

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    The Dasher keeps getting more popular every year in PRS shooting. :)
     
  19. Laurie

    Laurie

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    Read the articles in the US shooting press from the 70s and 80s, things like Ken Bird's superb 'Pet Loads' articles in Handloader magazine and interesting parallels about what was then already history appear. Back in the 50s and even well into the 60s, the 308 didn't sell well, and match shooters in particular pretty well hated it. Everything was wrong with the 308 (when compared to the .30-06). For a start, its neck was far too short. (This remind anyone of a criticism of the Creedmoor by a certain well known 6.5X47 Lapua fan whose forum name starts with G?)

    Look at all the matches won and records set with the 30-06 and none with the 308 .... and on, and on, and on .... until one or two people started to set new records and win matches with the new cartridge. Some barrel makers, chamber reamer cutters and gunsmiths looked at the 308 and said if we tweak this bit, and tighten that bit we can do better than Winchester's factory efforts. The barrel bore / groove dimensions could do better if tightened or increased a bit ... and so on. It's called development!

    Then a generation later, the US military adopted the 5.56X45mm and Remington adapted it to civilian shooting as the 223 with slightly different SAAMI specs. The triple two was a much loved design, heart of a generation's short-range benchrest competition, and a fantastically high precision design for its day. People predicted that the 223 would flop - why would anybody want an inferiors design. Inferior - for a start, the 223 case's neck is FAR too short! (You get tyhe drift?) And on, and on, and on .... until the inferior 223 wiped the 222 off the shooting map. (And actually, maybe the 222 is a superior design a 100 fps MV apart, but the 223 has again started out as a mass market cartridge and been developed into a viable 1,000 yard FTR cartridge, a feat that was long regarded as sheer fantasy. Again, it's called development!)

    It's easy to say the Creedmoor is a success just because it's had money thrown at it in marketing. That's total cr*p! It's had no more money than most introductions of the last half century, and likely a lot less than Remington spent on the 260 back in the 90s, or Winchester did on the WSMs and WSSMs. It has succeeded because David Emary with some inspirational help from Dennis DeMille produced a cartridge that met a market need, did the job properly, and got two major rifle manufacturers (Savage and Ruger) in the loop helping in development and producing attractive rifles chambered for the Creedmoor to show alongside the new cartridge at SHOT 2008. It was because the trio made sure that any American gunwriter who wanted a review rifle got one and also laid on all expenses paid whitetail or hog or whatever shooting trips, It was because Hornady worked with Dave Kiff on the chamber before launch and there was both an industry standard reamer and lots of finishing reamers and chamber gauges made and ready for gunsmiths before launch day in January 2008..... because G.A.P., McMillan and the others who make tactical and XTC rifles were in the loop and onboard before launch. AND ... perhaps most of all because the concept of the available in local gunshops across the nation at affordable prices for match ammunition that'd shoot into a half to three-quarters MOA saw people able to buy good quality stuff way cheaper than frankly humdrum 308 or 260 rounds.

    It wasn't marketing spend (which somehow equates this effort with lying about something or cheating in some way?) that saw a design intended solely to be a range tool have the nation's local gun dealers contact Hornady and say - Hey, we've got whitetail and muley hunters here desperate for expanding bullet ammo for this new Creedmoor cartridge very much to Hornady's surprise and pushing them into putting a couple of deerhunting loads into production at short notice.

    Now, Lapua designed the 6.5X47 Lapua as an out and out match job from day one working with top Swiss 300 metre rifle maker Grunig & Elmiger, the Rolls Royce of European target rifle manufacturers. It had one job in life - to kick the 6mm BR out of 300M 3-position ISSF / CISM shooting, a really demanding discipline. XTR for masochists one could say! It (the cartridge) failed utterly in its one aim. Not because it's a poor design - far from it - but because the 6mm BR is in the round still unbeatable in this discipline. But the point is it (the 6.5X47L) was designed from day one for really top-notch precision whilst the Creedmoor was designed for fast slick shooting in XTC and general target work where a half-MOA is good enough and getting out on the range putting in trigger time gains more points than load development beyond a certain MOA value. While the 6.5X47L started life fully developed, the Creedmoor is more akin to a modern day 308 or 223. It may not get a lot better in precision terms .... or it may see years of development that inch it into one of the all time precision greats. Who knows? That's part of the fun in watching the precision shooting scene, the uncertainty of these things, the winners that come up from the backfield on the outside and the 'certs' that fall by the wayside when the race is half run.

    What is certain is that Lapua was unable or unwilling to get even the Euroipean shooting industry onside, never mind the world's largest shooting market, the USA. While the Creedmoor now has almost every US rifle manufacturing firm bar Remington listing it, and in Europe Sauer, Blaser, Sabatti, Victrix, and Tikka have now adopted it, I've only managed to find two Italian specialist companies worldwide which list the 6.5X47L as a standard chambering. There are now 10 or so companies listing Creedmoor brass or ammunition with Hornady now cataloguing 11 loadings for the cartridge. Lapua makes '47L brass (and ammo that few can afford) ... and after 12 years, still nobody else has joined the company, not even the US 'Boutique' manufacturers that produce 6.5x55 and 260 Rem match / tactical ammo - Prime Ammunition (made by Norma); Hunting Shack; Cor-Bon; Applied Ballistics Muntions etc.

    None of this is a criticism of Nammo Lapua or its products. I'm a great fan of the company, its engineers, and its products whether Lapua or Vihtavuori. You can see though why Nammo has bought Berger Bullets and why the future will likely see a major US partnership and joint manufacturing enterprise located in the USA. The Creedmoor v 6.5X47L saga shows Lapua at a huge disadvantage against US based competitors in getting close enough to the world's richest recreational shooting market to be a leader there, not a follower.

    Finally, Hornady and its Creedmoor cartridge has had an enormous piece of plain good luck in the rise and rise of the affordable 'Blacktical rifle'. I now count no fewer than nine new Blacktical rifles (including the original Ruger PR) every one of which is offered in Creedmoor chambering. Nobody back in 2008 would have predicted this would be the next rifle shooting gold rush and it has probably benefited the Creedmoor more than any other cartridge - not just in the sales of ammo and brass for people's brand new shooting sticks, but in the publicity in magazines, Snipers Hide, Accurate Shooter, Facebook and other modern media.
     
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  20. 22DASHER

    22DASHER Gold $$ Contributor

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    I am happy the Creedmoor is gaining popularity and the Lapua cases. Makes getting the 6.5x47 brass that much easier to get when I need it! :D
     
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