308 FL Type S Bushing die for 260 rem

[Prose]

I have a Redding Type S FL 308 Bushing die. I am curious as to whether I can use this die to neck .308 cases down to 260 Rem (with an intermediate bushing) and thereafter use it as my 260 Rem die.

Thoughts on whether the bushing will length the entire neck?

Differences in case body that I should be aware of?

 

[Shynloco]

Prose,
Saw your post and frankly didn't know the answer. Went to my Sierra Manual and compared the two case drawings and the measurements appeared close. BUT, I then went and compared a piece of Lapua .308 brass to a piece of Lapua .260 Rem brass. The difference was very obvious in that the length and breath of the beginning of the shoulder angle (junction) and height of the two were significantly different. And if it were that easy to use another caliber FL resizing die, there would be no need to buy different dies even if they evolved from a similar body family. So I'd have to say NO to your question. Of course you can always experiment and give your thought a practical try by resizing one piece of .308 brass (necked down to a .260 Rem) and see if it'll chamber in your .260. But I wouldn't want to be the one pulling the trigger on a loaded round as the pressure ring in the .260 chamber would be quite different than that intended for a .260. Also remember, trim length for a .308 is 2.005 and the .260 is 2.025. Just my .02 worth.

Alex

 

[Prose]

Thanks for looking into that Alex. Very good explanation, but I do not understand the pressure ring portion toward the end.

 

[eric32]

The shoulder angles are the same for both.

The neck length is none issue just mean you wont have to trim for a long time

Only issues arise from not enough neck clearance from loaded round to chamber....might have to neck turn a little.

 

[Shynloco]

The shoulder angles are the same for both.

Respectfully Eric, that's bogus info! Take the two casings and set them side by side and then look at the shoulder angle. Or compare the measurements using a Precision Mic. If that's the same, then I must be blinder than I thought.

Alex

 

[Prose]

I always assumed that the 243, 260, 7mm 08, 308, 338 fed and 358 win all shared the same 23 degree shoulder. Better look into that before I go blowing stuff up.

 

[Someoldguy]

I always assumed that the 243, 260, 7mm 08, 308, 338 fed and 358 win all shared the same 23 degree shoulder. Better look into that before I go blowing stuff up.

Given that they share Go/No-Go gauges, I presume this to be correct. Especially given that all my .358Win and .260Rem brass all started life out as LC .308. Blowing stuff up won't be due to the shoulder angle.

Having said that and as related to the OPs question, I used FL sizing dies with pull-thru expanders and multiple steps, then fireforming for my initial resizing. I never tried to use a bushing-type die to do this, so I've no idea if that will work or not.

 

[Prose]

Given that they share Go/No-Go gauges, I presume this to be correct. Especially given that all my .358Win and .260Rem brass all started life out as LC .308. Blowing stuff up won't be due to the shoulder angle.

Having said that and as related to the OPs question, I used FL sizing dies with pull-thru expanders and multiple steps, then fireforming for my initial resizing. I never tried to use a bushing-type die to do this, so I've no idea if that will work or not.

You are right, they all share the same gauges. I'll give er a shot

 

[eric32]

Respectfully Eric, that's bogus info! Take the two casings and set them side by side and then look at the shoulder angle. Or compare the measurements using a Precision Mic. If that's the same, then I must be blinder than I thought.

Alex

Alex,

i understand where you are coming from. 308win and 260rem share a 20 degree shoulder and same body length.

http://accurateshooter.net/pix/260REM.png

http://accurateshooter.net/pix/308Win.png

difference is in the shoulder to case mouth length.

Also the RCBS precision mic measures headspace which should be identical to the 308win since they are the same go gauge.

 

[Shynloco]

You are right, they all share the same gauges. I'll give er a shot

Prose,
Ok. I decided to give your idea a shot. I took a piece of Lapua brass that I'd Necked down from 308 to .260 Rem. I measured the casing to determine if any changes had occurred when I tested your idea, using my Redding FL .308 S Die and the Neck Bushing from my Redding FL .260 Rem S Die. I then ran the casing through the .308 FL S (with the .260 sized Neck Bushing) Die and found the following.

1. No problems or heavy resistance when FL resizing in the .308 FL S. Die.
2. The Overall Length of the casing was reduced by .003.
3. The shoulders were bumped .002 more than what it was using the .260 FL S Die.
4. The concentricity of the casing was increased by .0005 in runout using my 21st Century Concentricity Gauge.
5. The resized casing chambered just fine in my Kreiger .260 Remington Match chamber.

So, it looks like your idea will fly and that I've learn something new today. Forget all the theory for a moment and give it a try, live fire. I'd caution about going with a "hot load" and go mid range in the spread of recommended loads.

Good luck and let us know how she shoots in the real world.

Alex

 

[Prose]

Prose,
Ok. I decided to give your idea a shot. I took a piece of Lapua brass that I'd Necked down from 308 to .260 Rem. I measured the casing to determine if any changes had occurred when I tested your idea, using my Redding FL .308 S Die and the Neck Bushing from my Redding FL .260 Rem S Die. I then ran the casing through the .308 FL S (with the .260 sized Neck Bushing) Die and found the following.

1. No problems or heavy resistance when FL resizing in the .308 FL S. Die.
2. The Overall Length of the casing was reduced by .003.
3. The shoulders were bumped .002 more than what it was using the .260 FL S Die.
4. The concentricity of the casing was increased by .0005 in runout using my 21st Century Concentricity Gauge.
5. The resized casing chambered just fine in my Kreiger .260 Remington Match chamber.

So, it looks like your idea will fly and that I've learn something new today. Forget all the theory for a moment and give it a try, live fire. I'd caution about going with a "hot load" and go mid range in the spread of recommended loads.

Good luck and let us know how she shoots in the real world.

Alex

Thanks Alex. Looking forward to giving it a try myself.

A couple points of interest from your results. I'm surprised the lapua fit into your match 260 chamber. Had you already neck turned as 308? I assumed the neck would be too thick. What is the chamber neck on your 260. That's good news if no neck turning is involved.

Do you think concentricity would be improved if taken down in two steps vice one? I was thinking 7mm first then 6.5.

 

[Shynloco]

Prose,
To the best of my knowledge, the reamer used is a PTG .297 Match Reamer with a .067 freebore chamber size. It is the one recommended for handloads. But I usually use 2 steps when either necking down or up. It CAN be done using 1 step, but I kinda think it stresses the casing and shortens neck life. My experiences tell me that neck stay in tact longer and don't start to crack as fast when I use 2 steps via 1 step to neck up or down. But once you do it, remember to anneal the brass so the stress/change becomes more adaptable and alike in all the pieces of brass. And new Lapua brass doesn't require anymore turning than to clean it up, that is, no turning necessary is my chambers. I'm finding that since Lapua thinned some of their brass (a few years ago and made it more chamber ready) the turning of the past is just that, in the past.

Alex

 

[Prose]

I finally got around to doing this tonight, my dad had borrowed my .308 die for the past couple months.

The 308 lapua brass was neck turned slightly and necked down in two steps using a .312 and .291 Bushing. For some unknown reason, the cases were belled out at the mouth 3 to 4 thousandths after running through the .312 bushing. I had to poke them into a seating die to straighten the case mouth. My dad and I are at a loss for what caused the case mouth to bell. We flipped bushings and took measurements but couldn't figure it out.

Using the .312 bushing, the case mouth measures .312 and the rest of the neck measured about .309 or so, just enough to feel it and see it. The .291 did not produce a bell.

Overall, minus the slight problem solving with the case mouth, everything worked just fine. Concentricity was good, chambering was fine. Measurements were all where I wanted them to be. Appreciate the testing and measurements you guys took for me during the planning phase.

 

[Fast14riot]

Seems to me just a bit bigger step down, but exactly like making 20P brass in a 223 bushing die. Sometimes rather than constantly changing bushings, I use a standard FL non bushing die with the expander removed, that can get the neck down a bit to start. Then continue on to sizing in final bushing size. This method works well if you have both dies set up in a progressive press.

 

[Prose]

Seems to me just a bit bigger step down, but exactly like making 20P brass in a 223 bushing die. Sometimes rather than constantly changing bushings, I use a standard FL non bushing die with the expander removed, that can get the neck down a bit to start. Then continue on to sizing in final bushing size. This method works well if you have both dies set up in a progressive press.

Checking out some other posts last night has me agreeing that the bell is generally caused by too much of a step down in a single pass.

 

[ShootDots]

I use Lapua .308 Palma brass in 2/ .260A.I.'s that I shoot. If you want to form the .308 brass down to .260, there is a way that will make it look exactly like "regular" .260 brass. It is a bit more work, however, once done, you have perfect .260 brass.

1.) Expand the case necks while they are still 30 cal. Turn the necks down (I like completely turned necks down to 12 thousandths.) to 0.0115 to a straight 0.012. Here is a trick to doing it in 1 pass. A.) Put a good chamfer on the outside of the case mouth. At this time, I always chamfer the inside of the case mouth too. Use a carbide turning mandrel and a good drop of neck turning lube on the mandrel. You will get a nice "curley-que" slice of brass. Run the case back and forth a few times to ensure a clean smooth cut.
2.) Take a .7-08 BODY DIE and run the case thru it.
3.) Take a .260Rem BODY DIE and run the now 7-08 case thru it.
4.) Take your .260 rem F/L bushing die and put in a .286 bushing.
5.) Run the "new" .260 case into the die with the .286 bushing.
6.) Run the "now formed case" into your .264 expander mandrel
7.) "Skim Turn" the necks back down to 12K and remove the very slight "external doughnut" that formed at the neck / shoulder junction. This neck turn time, your cases will be butter smooth on the outside of the case neck. NOTE: whether you turn your necks or not, you WILL have this doughnut there that needs to be removed
8.) Chamfer again, the outside / inside of the case mouth.

If you are not one to "turn necks", going down from .308 to .264 will thicken the necks and most probably make them impossible to chamber, even in a "no-turn" neck chamber. If you only want to "clean up" your cases from neck turning, you will have to use the appropriate bushing for your F/L Bushing die so as not to squeeze the necks way too tight. I am giving you what I use to make 12K final neck thickness. T-Rust me, done like this and you will have PERFECTLY formed .260 Brass.

 

[jsthntn247]

I use Lapua .308 Palma brass in 2/ .260A.I.'s that I shoot. If you want to form the .308 brass down to .260, there is a way that will make it look exactly like "regular" .260 brass. It is a bit more work, however, once done, you have perfect .260 brass.

1.) Expand the case necks while they are still 30 cal. Turn the necks down (I like completely turned necks down to 12 thousandths.) to 0.0115 to a straight 0.012. Here is a trick to doing it in 1 pass. A.) Put a good chamfer on the outside of the case mouth. At this time, I always chamfer the inside of the case mouth too. Use a carbide turning mandrel and a good drop of neck turning lube on the mandrel. You will get a nice "curley-que" slice of brass. Run the case back and forth a few times to ensure a clean smooth cut.
2.) Take a .7-08 BODY DIE and run the case thru it.
3.) Take a .260Rem BODY DIE and run the now 7-08 case thru it.
4.) Take your .260 rem F/L bushing die and put in a .286 bushing.
5.) Run the "new" .260 case into the die with the .286 bushing.
6.) Run the "now formed case" into your .264 expander mandrel
7.) "Skim Turn" the necks back down to 12K and remove the very slight "external doughnut" that formed at the neck / shoulder junction. This neck turn time, your cases will be butter smooth on the outside of the case neck. NOTE: whether you turn your necks or not, you WILL have this doughnut there that needs to be removed
8.) Chamfer again, the outside / inside of the case mouth.

If you are not one to "turn necks", going down from .308 to .264 will thicken the necks and most probably make them impossible to chamber, even in a "no-turn" neck chamber. If you only want to "clean up" your cases from neck turning, you will have to use the appropriate bushing for your F/L Bushing die so as not to squeeze the necks way too tight. I am giving you what I use to make 12K final neck thickness. T-Rust me, done like this and you will have PERFECTLY formed .260 Brass.

Damn Ben, that's allot of work. I'd just have to chamber up a 6.5cm and use the Lapua SRP brass. You must be retired.

 

[ShootDots]

Damn Ben, that's allot of work. I'd just have to chamber up a 6.5cm and use the Lapua SRP brass. You must be retired.

Yeah, somewhere along the line, I got myself retired! Now I have the time to not only do these things>>>I figure out a way to do them really well! LOL!!!

P.S. I just did 130 pieces and it took me a bit over 6 hours... Not bad considering it only needs to be done 1 time.. The Palma Brass lasts A LONG time!

 

[hogan]

Have discussed this some years back.. Redding type S FL dies will work with correct neck bushing on many ctgs in the same family. I use a .300win mag die to size for .338/300, and a .308win to size .260rem. I needed a die for .308win AI some years back... Got the .243win AI FL S die, but the die throat was too tight for the .308 bullet. Wound up having to take the temper out of the die so could bore it on miniature lathe.

The die changed to a bluish tint due to the heat to cherry red and air cooling, but the neck was then easy to bore.

Why in the hell are sizing dies tempered to such levels? Not like pushing some brass through polished steel is going to wear the steel? Carbide, I understand; it eliminates the need for brass lube, but the extreme temper level seems very excess to me. Maybe done to discourage die-wildcatting?

I have necked-down .308win Lapua brass to .260rem using standard RCBS or Redding FL dies. When used the FL S needed to go .33x=>.304; then to .286. If necking up from .243win, use a tapered expander.

 

[fguffey]

2.) Take a .7-08 BODY DIE and run the case thru it.

Body die? I called a manufacturer to ask them to described a body die, I explained to them how difficult it is to size a case without shoulder support: meaning if the die has shoulder support it is not a body die. Anyhow, I reminded him I was sizing cases with out the fancy dies before fancy dies were available. The old dies still work but finding someone that knows how to operate them could be the difficult part.

F. Guffey