What chamber were you using and what was the Ctg. OAL? I'm going to try some in my Service Rifle.
B
223 90 grain Sierra Match King bullet match report
- Thread starter CaptainH
- Start date
What chamber were you using and what was the Ctg. OAL? I'm going to try some in my Service Rifle.
B
I will get that for you tonight
I've shot the 90's and the 80's. I saw a considerable difference between the two. So yeah I feel it is definitely worth it.
I would think 2700+ would be attainable.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Shooting the 90s over H4895 from a 30" barrel at 2850 fps is very hard on brass, maybe 3 firings, 4 if you're really lucky. Using Varget at 2820 fps is a definite improvement in terms of brass life. From a similar setup throated properly, I'd expect well in excess of 2900 fps with an 80-grainer. As long as you can push them over 2650 fps or so, the 90s will only get better in terms of wind resistance relative to the 80s the faster you can move them. Even with less than optimal freebore, that kind of velocity shouldn't be an issue. Most have found with the 90s that seating depth is extremely important to get them to shoot consistently. Some have found they want to be into the lands, some seat them close to touching, and others like myself shoot the 90 VLDs at ~.015" off the lands. Once you find the sweet spot, they're almost like magic 
.
.Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
You definitely shouldn't need a 20 MOA base at 600 yd. Your drop would be in the neighborhood of 13-14 MOA, which is well under half the total elevation range of that scope. You can easily determine whether you would need a 10 MOA base by checking how much upward elevation travel you have from your approximate 100 yd zero. If it's 14 MOA or more, you have plenty. If it's well under that, you probably need either a 10 MOA base or scope rings with inserts that accomplish the same thing.
I too recently built a 223 FTR rifle specifically for use at midrange to save my 308 barrel for LR matches. Shot my first match last weekend with the rifle and a load I worked up using the 90gr SMK. It was a laser! Shot what may have been my best midrange score ever. 199-9x at 300, 199-10x at 500, and 198-5x at 600. Conditions were interesting with intermittent rain and sun and a light but switchy breeze. Of note I beat Jay Christopherson who was shooting his 284 win in open class and won the 500, 600 and agg. Really impressed with the rifle, load and the 90gr SMK.
skiutah02
Silver $$ Contributor
There is a long backstory, but I will cut to the chase (everything is relative) now that I have enough experience with the new 90SMK to feel comfortable sharing. With a new Bartlein, 30-in, 1:7, 4-groove, barrel cut with the ISSF 223 reamer giving 0.169 freebore, I developed a load for the 90SMK. A more through load development was done on a sister barrel (a friends) that had a few hundred rounds already through it. I liked the thought of a break-in/fireforming bullet/load that I could shoot in a few matches and not deplete my supply of precious 90vlds that would be "better" than the 80vld fireforming load I have been using. I have 3 other barrels the same as this that I use with the 90vld and 90lrbt, so I have some sense of what I should expect in the new barrel. I've also learned not to do an intensive load development in these barrels until about 150 rounds as they speed up and do not settle in until then.
The bullet is very uniform. I first sorted 100 of my box of 500 (at random) by BTO and there was a pile of 81 that fell within +-0.0005” and the rest only 0.001 less. That consistency is better that my first two sortings of 90vlds, but similar to my last two sortings of newer 90vlds. I weighed the 81 and 41/81 were in a pretty tight weight range +-0.030 gn and 40/81 were just over 0.100 grain heavier, but also in a pretty tight range (+-0.030 gn). I have not been weighing bullets for too long, but I can say that this is very consistent even as compared to Berger 90vlds. When I sorted another 200 later, similar variance was observed, i.e. all 200 within 0.002 of each other and two weight "piles" that were 0.100 gn apart and 0.060 gn wide.
There seems to be a node at 2805-2815fps that is easily obtainable and not too hard on the brass for the first firing.
I would normally not do this, but an unexpected opportunity to shoot them at a night practice (i.e. low winds which is rare in ND) at 1000 yds allowed me just enough time to try them out in my own barrel. With 15 total rounds on the new barrel, and based upon my work on my friends barrel, I did a quick powder test and a quick seating depth test and found that they shot quite well with a very similar load as my friends (but at the same velocity 2805fps 75oF and about 0.25 MOA at 100 yds). I loaded up 15 to shoot at 1000. I ultimately wanted to see vertical at 1000 for 10 shots.
After a couple of shots to get on target, I asked my target puller to keep track of my shots with vertical in mind. He told me that my first 5 shots (5 mph wind) went into a 2-2.5 in group (not vertical). Shot 6 went about 2.5-3 inches higher than the 1st 5, and shot #9 about 3 inches lower than the major group. In the end 8 shots had 3 inches of vertical and considering all 10 shots has 7.5-8 in vertical overall. Not bad for little load development and fireforming brass. And good enough to use in a match.
I used them in a Palma match a few weeks later. They held good vertical at 800 and I even shot out the spotter in the x-ring at 900 where they also held vertical quite well. I did have my very first crossfire ever, but that I cannot blame on the projectile. At 1000, the vertical was not great. >1.5MOA. That could have been a lot of things.
At the end of my string at 1000, I shot two 90 vlds without changing anything on the rifle. The two bullets have the same 100 yd zero, in that when I alternate 90smk/90vld in the rifle, the bullets go into one 0.2ish-MOA hole. The two 90vlds went 12oclock high mid 8 ring about 2 inches apart horizontally. This seemed to give me confidence that the BC on the 90smk is lower than the 90vld. I expected this, but it was nice to confirm. Two days later I shot the 90vlds in a second day of Palma at the same range. The come-up for the 90smk was between 0.75 and 1.50 MOA MORE than the 90vld at 800-900-1000.
In short, they are an excellent bullet out of the box, are very consistent and perform well. I found them very easy to tune. I do however feel that the BC is actually lower than the 90vld.
I will be shooting them on day 2 of this weekend’s MN State Midrange Championship to fireform more brass for Nationals. However, if I were a MN resident (and could win the title), I would be shooting the 90vld instead.
Edited to fix error in comeups.
Drew
The bullet is very uniform. I first sorted 100 of my box of 500 (at random) by BTO and there was a pile of 81 that fell within +-0.0005” and the rest only 0.001 less. That consistency is better that my first two sortings of 90vlds, but similar to my last two sortings of newer 90vlds. I weighed the 81 and 41/81 were in a pretty tight weight range +-0.030 gn and 40/81 were just over 0.100 grain heavier, but also in a pretty tight range (+-0.030 gn). I have not been weighing bullets for too long, but I can say that this is very consistent even as compared to Berger 90vlds. When I sorted another 200 later, similar variance was observed, i.e. all 200 within 0.002 of each other and two weight "piles" that were 0.100 gn apart and 0.060 gn wide.
There seems to be a node at 2805-2815fps that is easily obtainable and not too hard on the brass for the first firing.
I would normally not do this, but an unexpected opportunity to shoot them at a night practice (i.e. low winds which is rare in ND) at 1000 yds allowed me just enough time to try them out in my own barrel. With 15 total rounds on the new barrel, and based upon my work on my friends barrel, I did a quick powder test and a quick seating depth test and found that they shot quite well with a very similar load as my friends (but at the same velocity 2805fps 75oF and about 0.25 MOA at 100 yds). I loaded up 15 to shoot at 1000. I ultimately wanted to see vertical at 1000 for 10 shots.
After a couple of shots to get on target, I asked my target puller to keep track of my shots with vertical in mind. He told me that my first 5 shots (5 mph wind) went into a 2-2.5 in group (not vertical). Shot 6 went about 2.5-3 inches higher than the 1st 5, and shot #9 about 3 inches lower than the major group. In the end 8 shots had 3 inches of vertical and considering all 10 shots has 7.5-8 in vertical overall. Not bad for little load development and fireforming brass. And good enough to use in a match.
I used them in a Palma match a few weeks later. They held good vertical at 800 and I even shot out the spotter in the x-ring at 900 where they also held vertical quite well. I did have my very first crossfire ever, but that I cannot blame on the projectile
. At 1000, the vertical was not great. >1.5MOA. That could have been a lot of things.At the end of my string at 1000, I shot two 90 vlds without changing anything on the rifle. The two bullets have the same 100 yd zero, in that when I alternate 90smk/90vld in the rifle, the bullets go into one 0.2ish-MOA hole. The two 90vlds went 12oclock high mid 8 ring about 2 inches apart horizontally. This seemed to give me confidence that the BC on the 90smk is lower than the 90vld. I expected this, but it was nice to confirm. Two days later I shot the 90vlds in a second day of Palma at the same range. The come-up for the 90smk was between 0.75 and 1.50 MOA MORE than the 90vld at 800-900-1000.
In short, they are an excellent bullet out of the box, are very consistent and perform well. I found them very easy to tune. I do however feel that the BC is actually lower than the 90vld.
I will be shooting them on day 2 of this weekend’s MN State Midrange Championship to fireform more brass for Nationals. However, if I were a MN resident (and could win the title), I would be shooting the 90vld instead.
Edited to fix error in comeups.
Drew
Last edited:
Thanks Drew great Write up!!There is a long backstory, but I will cut to the chase (everything is relative) now that I have enough experience with the new 90SMK to feel comfortable sharing. With a new Bartlein, 30-in, 1:7, 4-groove, barrel cut with the ISSF 223 reamer giving 0.169 freebore, I developed a load for the 90SMK. A more through load development was done on a sister barrel (a friends) that had a few hundred rounds already through it. I liked the thought of a break-in/fireforming bullet/load that I could shoot in a few matches and not deplete my supply of precious 90vlds that would be "better" than the 80vld fireforming load I have been using. I have 3 other barrels the same as this that I use with the 90vld and 90lrbt, so I have some sense of what I should expect in the new barrel. I've also learned not to do an intensive load development in these barrels until about 150 rounds as they speed up and do not settle in until then.
The bullet is very uniform. I first sorted 100 of my box of 500 (at random) by BTO and there was a pile of 81 that fell within +-0.0005” and the rest only 0.001 less. That consistency is better that my first two sortings of 90vlds, but similar to my last two sortings of newer 90vlds. I weighed the 81 and 41/81 were in a pretty tight weight range +-0.030 gn and 40/81 were just over 0.100 grain heavier, but also in a pretty tight range (+-0.030 gn). I have not been weighing bullets for too long, but I can say that this is very consistent even as compared to Berger 90vlds. When I sorted another 200 later, similar variance was observed, i.e. all 200 within 0.002 of each other and two weight "piles" that were 0.100 gn apart and 0.060 gn wide.
There seems to be a node at 2805-2815fps that is easily obtainable and not too hard on the brass for the first firing.
I would normally not do this, but an unexpected opportunity to shoot them at a night practice (i.e. low winds which is rare in ND) at 1000 yds allowed me just enough time to try them out in my own barrel. With 15 total rounds on the new barrel, and based upon my work on my friends barrel, I did a quick powder test and a quick seating depth test and found that they shot quite well with a very similar load as my friends (but at the same velocity 2805fps 75oF and about 0.25 MOA at 100 yds). I loaded up 15 to shoot at 1000. I ultimately wanted to see vertical at 1000 for 10 shots.
After a couple of shots to get on target, I asked my target puller to keep track of my shots with vertical in mind. He told me that my first 5 shots (5 mph wind) went into a 2-2.5 in group (not vertical). Shot 6 went about 2.5-3 inches higher than the 1st 5, and shot #9 about 3 inches lower than the major group. In the end 8 shots had 3 inches of vertical and considering all 10 shots has 7.5-8 in vertical overall. Not bad for little load development and fireforming brass. And good enough to use in a match.
I used them in a Palma match a few weeks later. They held good vertical at 800 and I even shot out the spotter in the x-ring at 900 where they also held vertical quite well. I did have my very first crossfire ever, but that I cannot blame on the projectile
At the end of my string at 1000, I shot two 90 vlds without changing anything on the rifle. The two bullets have the same 100 yd zero, in that when I alternate 90smk/90vld in the rifle, the bullets go into one 0.2ish-MOA hole. The two 90vlds went 12oclock high mid 8 ring about 2 inches apart horizontally. This seemed to give me confidence that the BC on the 90smk is lower than the 90vld. I expected this, but it was nice to confirm. Two days later I shot the 90vlds in a second day of Palma at the same range. The come-up for the 90smk was between 1.25 and 1.75 MORE than the 90vld at 800-900-1000.
In short, they are an excellent bullet out of the box, are very consistent and perform well. I found them very easy to tune. I do however feel that the BC is actually lower than the 90vld.
I will be shooting them on day 2 of this weekend’s MN State Midrange Championship to fireform more brass for Nationals. However, if I were a MN resident (and could win the title), I would be shooting the 90vld instead.
Drew
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Very nice report, Drew. In agreement with your findings, a friend of mine that has been using the 90 SMKs for a few months while the 90 VLDs were "unobtanium" also recently noticed about a 1.5 to 2.0 MOA difference in drop between the two bullets at 1000 yd in fairly comparable loads (velocity, etc.). His results intrigued me and using his velocity for the two loads (~2820 fps), I employed the JBM ballistic calculator to estimate the difference in drop, solely by decreasing the BC input as a model for the SMK 90 relative to the 90 VLD. I used generic atmospheric inputs and a G7 BC of 0.285 for the pointed 90 VLDs, which matches very closely to my experience using them.
In order to generate 1.5 MOA more drop for the SMK model bullet, I had to drop the G7 BC from 0.285 to 0.263. This represents approximately an 8% difference. The respective values predicted for full value 10 mph wind deflection of the Berger 90 VLD and SMK 90 at 1000 yd in these simulations were 6.7 MOA and 7.5 MOA, respectively. This is certainly a relatively crude predictive model, but I think it does a reasonable job of illustrating how much windage difference you might expect based on differences in drop, both of which are proportional to bullet BC.
In order to generate 1.5 MOA more drop for the SMK model bullet, I had to drop the G7 BC from 0.285 to 0.263. This represents approximately an 8% difference. The respective values predicted for full value 10 mph wind deflection of the Berger 90 VLD and SMK 90 at 1000 yd in these simulations were 6.7 MOA and 7.5 MOA, respectively. This is certainly a relatively crude predictive model, but I think it does a reasonable job of illustrating how much windage difference you might expect based on differences in drop, both of which are proportional to bullet BC.
skiutah02
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks Greg, good info. I had to fix the come ups when I checked my notes this morning. 0.75 at 800, 1.0 at 900 and 1.50 at 1000. As you had pointed out a few months ago, with almost a 0.100" longer overall length vs the SMK, it was hard to believe that the 90vld would have a lower bc.
I should also note that I had pointed my 90vlds.
The 90smk is a very nice bullet, nonetheless.
Drew
Last edited:
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Several guys I shot with in San Diego had started using the SMK 90s and they were very happy with the results. I haven't used them myself, but my gut feeling is that they're pretty close to the VLDs, maybe a small increment behind in terms of BC/wind resistance, but close. Certainly either of the 90s should be better than the closest 80-something gr bullets. The friend whose data U used to make the drop/windage calculations also pointed his 90 VLDs, so the comparison was between both bullets pointed. Anyhow, very nice post, thanks for sharing, and best of luck in the MN matches!
skiutah02
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks. Using this match to help get my Midrange game face on for our NE meeting.
It's clear to me I'll need my A+ game to make it interesting.
JAlfred
Silver $$ Contributor
Could anyone pull out their crystal ball and give me an guestimated powder charge to get the 90 SMK to 2700fps with a 30" barrel, Case capacity of 30.4 water, COAL 2.430.
Powders would be Varget, CFE, or Reloder-15.
Primers would be Rem 7 1/2 or more likely Wolf SRM.
I am trying to wrap my head around this process and looking for general numbers only, not loading data.
Powders would be Varget, CFE, or Reloder-15.
Primers would be Rem 7 1/2 or more likely Wolf SRM.
I am trying to wrap my head around this process and looking for general numbers only, not loading data.
Won't take much. I'm yeti g 2825 fps with the 90gr smk, 23.9gr varget, Lapua brass and a cci BR-4. I first image somewhere around 23gr of varget will get you 2700 fps.
JAlfred
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks, how long is your throat/COAL.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks. Using this match to help get my Midrange game face on for our NE meeting.
It's clear to me I'll need my A+ game to make it interesting.
I may well not be the one you need to be concerned about
. In the last few outings here, some practice and one club match, I haven't shot particularly well. There has been a consistent and rather nasty fishtailing tailwind at the range here. It's quite different from the typical conditions at Camp Pendleton I have been struggling to get a good handle on it. One of our regular shooters, Damon Cali, who is also a member here at Accurate Shooter, posted a very good score to win last month's club match. I know of at least 5 or 6 shooters that will be at the State Match capable of posting a winning score in F-TR on any given day, and there are likely a few more I don't know about. I believe at least one or two may also shoot 223s w 90s, so it will be interesting to see how we all stack up against the 308 shooters. In any event, I'm certain the ultimate winner will have their work cut out for them. So bringing your A+ game is a very good idea. I'll try to bring mine as well, but you just never know, LOL. Regardless of the final tally, it will be a fun match to shoot and I'm looking forward to it. Safe travels!.169
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