Yet another ladder test question - sumthang ain't clear to me

[jawjaboy]

Ok I've searched and read, searched and read, searched and read, and read this page multiple times, http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html , but am still unclear about one thing in the ladder test procedure.

To setup my question say I've loaded 3 sets of rounds with each set with charge weight steps from A to G. All 3 sets are identical, case, primer, seating depth, etc, with each step (A, B, C, ... G) having the same charge weight from set to set. When running the test which should I do?

Shoot set 1 A to G, then shoot set 2 A to G, and then set 3 A to G

OR

shoot Set 1A, Set 2A, Set 3A, then Set 1B, Set 2B, Set 3B, and so forth until Set 1G, Set 2G, Set 3G?

I pretty much understand everything else about the ladder test but that.

 

[gilmillan1]

Personal preference but be consistent on all your shoots.

 

[kyreloader]

Shoot ladder 1 with A-G, ladder 2 G-A, then ladder 3 with A-G.

That is what I do. I shoot all three ladders on a white piece of poster board with 3 targets on the bottom of the poster board leveled. Shoot ladder one(A-G in your example), go to target mark the numbers based on color or video (video tape the hits occasionally), come back shoot ladder two(G-A in your example) then go back out to target to number based on color or video, come back and shoot ladder three (A-G in your example). I then return to target and number the bullet holes.

 

[Lapua40X]

... http://www.6mmbr.com/lladdertest.html,.

Link correction:

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

 

[dmoran]

Myself, for ruffing in or finding the nodes, shooting them as separate ladders (1A to 1G) is what I do. With all assessment based from the vertical dispersion solely for the POI and by velocity data.
For fine tuning an established node/load, is when I may opp to fire them as group ladders instead.
Distance is our friend to ladder testing, and I highly recommend +300yds or further.
Good Luck
Donovan

 

[jawjaboy]

Thanks fellas.

 

[Lapua40X]

Just one small piece of advice when ladder testing. I suggest taking along a load of known value and spending some time making sure your shooter discipline is intact. Once we've been shooting for a while at the range we sometimes get a little sloppy (lazy) and need to reconfirm our commitment to good shooting form. If the results on target are contaminated because we didn't set up the shot properly, the results don't mean a thing.
Yesterday I took a known load to the range for a little trigger time. I could not figure out why a load that had typically held a tight group was so erratic. After taking some time to analyze my set up at the bench I found a couple of shooter discipline issues that I had gotten careless with.

 

[USMCDOC]

Just one small piece of advice when ladder testing. I suggest taking along a load of known value and spending some time making sure your shooter discipline is intact. Once we've been shooting for a while at the range we sometimes get a little sloppy (lazy) and need to reconfirm our commitment to good shooting form. If the results on target are contaminated because we didn't set up the shot properly, the results don't mean a thing.
Yesterday I took a known load to the range for a little trigger time. I could not figure out why a load that had typically held a tight group was so erratic. After taking some time to analyze my set up at the bench I found a couple of shooter discipline issues that I had gotten careless with.

View attachment 993815

That is where a lot of dry firing between shots help too

 

[hogan]

Lots of variables. Since you are "unclear", understand this: IF you're shooting a magnum rifle or something with short barrel life, like a 6.5x284, then most of your barrel life is going up in smoke. For what purpose? Your own satisfaction?

IF you're shooting for precision, the best starting point is Sierra Bullets accuracy load. While the old saying, Misery Loves Company, is true; nowhere is it more true than among hobbyist or beginning precision shooters. The ignorance that compels testing of 3 primers, 10 charge weights, several bullets to get a "sweet spot load" is widely accepted as de rigeur.... Except it is just stupidity, unless shooting .22lr or some kind of variable propulsion pellet rifle.

If your rifle won't deliver precision with the Sierra Accuracy Load, then your gun is likely defective. Could also have a problem with your scope or your mount system. Of course, if you are burning your barrel throat out looking for that magic moment it all comes together; if your gun is loose, how will you know???

Got a boresighter/collimator? Something like the Bushnell 74-3333? The 160x160moa grid is a superb mechanism to test your scope repeatability and verify your mount system concentricity with the bore.

Shooting for that last .0001" to get a record score at benchrest? Then you likely buy and have chambered several barrels from same lot at the same time... Maybe then your testing with a thousand or more shots fired will carryover to another virgin barrel for competition? I will remark that over 10yrs ago, I recall reading a forum guru talking about testing a Sako .338win mag with 4 bullets, 3 primers, 3 powders and 10 load variations shooting 5rd groups. The shots fired were well beyond any realistic barrel life for that magnum rifle. Finding the "sweet spot load" (finally) the guy was pleased to sell the rifle to someone in "like new condition".... Well everything but the barrel and boltface, but who needs those???

Start with the proven data from your bulletmaker and save yourself a lot of hassle.

 

[jawjaboy]

"Start with the proven data from your bulletmaker and save yourself a lot of hassle."

This I have.

Just completed my F-Class 284 Win open build. Prepping for the first firing and load development and had that question on the ladder shot protocol.

Thanks

 

[dmoran]

Lots of variables............

For me, half the "fun factor" is load development and finding the most accurate components and loads. And along the way I gain experience and knowledge to the rifle system, my reloading practices, and shooting skills. Besides, barrels to me are expendable, just like bullets, powder, and primers.

With that all said, I also typically find "Sierra accuracy loads" to be under achiever's and a far cry from what is used in most comp rifles to the given calibers.
Just my 2-cents
Donovan

 

[jlow]

Ok I've searched and read, searched and read, searched and read, and read this page multiple times, http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html , but am still unclear about one thing in the ladder test procedure.

To setup my question say I've loaded 3 sets of rounds with each set with charge weight steps from A to G. All 3 sets are identical, case, primer, seating depth, etc, with each step (A, B, C, ... G) having the same charge weight from set to set. When running the test which should I do?

Shoot set 1 A to G, then shoot set 2 A to G, and then set 3 A to G

OR

shoot Set 1A, Set 2A, Set 3A, then Set 1B, Set 2B, Set 3B, and so forth until Set 1G, Set 2G, Set 3G?

I pretty much understand everything else about the ladder test but that.

If you are going to run three sets so that you can compare sets, I would shoot the second option. The reason is doing it that way would make the three sets as similar as possible in terms of atmospheric conditions, barrel temperature, barrel fouling. That way when you compare the three, everything possible would be similar and any difference you see would be due to charge weight differences.

This is the same reason why when you are testing three loads and shooting 5 rounds each load, you do not shoot all the rounds for one load first before you go to the second load. We call that the round Robin method.

 

[dkhunt14]

If your rifle won't deliver precision with the Sierra Accuracy Load, then your gun is likely defective.
Start with the proven data from your bulletmaker and save yourself a lot of hassle.

If you are talking factory rifles you may be correct. You are only going to do so good. Now if you think your gun is going to shoot the same as a heavy barrel clamped in a machine rest, you are probably in for a surprise. I can guarantee if you do this in 600 or 1000 yard bench rest, you probably lost before you started. Then there is the Berger and other bullets that they don't test. Then you have Freebore that is way more then the factory or Sierra uses in their barrels.

It doesn't take many rounds to do a ladder to see where your gun shoots best and find that node. The first thing I would do is talk to people in the game you shoot. It is pretty simple in some cartridges. Almost everybody shooting a 300 WSM IS SHOOTING H4350 with a 210 or 215 primer. A Dasher and most are shooting R15 or Varget with a BR4 or 450 primer. Talking to a few BR or match shooters can help you narrow down choices. Those guys have burnt up barrels testing and they usually know what works. I know of almost nobody in long range BR using Sierra bullets. A few with Dashers do but for the most part it is Berger or custom. Matt

 

[mikecr]

Hard to believe anyone today would suggest using a book load over development,, -for precision,,, -because load development is stupid?
WOW

 

[jawjaboy]

Hard to believe anyone today would suggest using a book load over development,, -for precision,,, -because load development is stupid?
WOW

That don't matter as there isn't a manufacturer accuracy load recommendation at this time for the bullet I'm using. But I do have their min/max load data for the powder I'm using; i.e. H4831.

 

[dkhunt14]

Even having the minimum maximum doesn't help much. Yes it is a good place to start. The reloading manuals have seem to be getting more conservative every year. I believe the lawyers and suits had a lot to do with this. Another problem is with BR and F-Class is the bullets these guys use are the longer, higher BC and require more throat length. When you change the length of the throat, you change the top end charge because you have more capacity. Moving a bullet out the case has the same effect as improving the case. Matt

 

[RonAKA]

Ok I've searched and read, searched and read, searched and read, and read this page multiple times, http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html , but am still unclear about one thing in the ladder test procedure.

To setup my question say I've loaded 3 sets of rounds with each set with charge weight steps from A to G. All 3 sets are identical, case, primer, seating depth, etc, with each step (A, B, C, ... G) having the same charge weight from set to set. When running the test which should I do?

Shoot set 1 A to G, then shoot set 2 A to G, and then set 3 A to G

OR

shoot Set 1A, Set 2A, Set 3A, then Set 1B, Set 2B, Set 3B, and so forth until Set 1G, Set 2G, Set 3G?

I pretty much understand everything else about the ladder test but that.

It really does not matter, as long as you record the point of impact of every single shot and the corresponding velocity of every single shot. Then you plot the vertical component of POI vs velocity to find flat spots where velocity increases but vertical POI does not. The order of shooting is only to try and reduce operator error.