Would Welcome Input on .223 Long Range Bullets.....

[walker2713]

I just bought a Savage 12 F/TR 1-7 twist, 30" barrel rifle.....

Planning to shoot it at 600, and other 100-200-300 yard local matches, I'd really appreciate some input on bullet selection.

I'm currently shooting a 6BR using 105 Berger VLDs, but am open to Hornady AMax or SMKs....or other options you may want to recommend based on your experience.

Thank you,

George

 

[memilanuk]

Berger 82gn BT worked very well in mine using N150 and Rem 7.5 primers. B90VLD shot okay, but ran into some temp problems with the powder used (N550).

 

[Catfish]

I have had excellant luck with the Sierra 80 SMK and pretty good luck with the 77 SMK`s. I shoot and 8 twist and have not tried the 90 SMK`s, but may. The heavy Bergers did well too, but the Sierra`s were better in my 224 TTH.

 

[xswanted]

I'm shooting the 80 grain SMK's out of a 22-250AI, works great at long range.

Bergers, would be another choice or the 75 Amax....all good bullets to look at!

 

[jonbearman]

I use the hornady 75 grain hpbt match bullets and they show good promise as well as the 75 grain amax.

 

[Matt Pitchon]

With a 7 twist and 30" tube, you have a lot of options. 100-300 is short range, and just about anything over 69grs will work. At 600, things change. If you review the ballistics table, you will find that the 90gr bullets have substantially higher BCs than any of the 80-82 gr bullets. There are four 90gr bullets available. The 90 gr SMK can't go much over 2650 before exploding, according to Sierra, because the bullet has a thin jacket. Berger makes two versions, the 90HPBT and the 90VLD. The 90 HPBT is easy to get to shoot well, the 90 VLD is one of the most difficult. The reward for the 90 VLD is that it has a higher BC than any of the 6mm bullets, with the exception of the new 6mm hydrid. JLK makes a 90 but I have no experience with it. In my .223 30" 7 twist, the Berger 90VLD goes about 2900 and is accurate. It gives up nothing to most 6mm, and for Palma and Full Bore it is far better ballistically than a .308s shooting 155s.

 

[Laurie]

I just bought a Savage 12 F/TR 1-7 twist, 30" barrel rifle.....

George,

while the 1-7" twist will stabilise the 90s, my understanding is that the 12 F/TR is not throated out long enough to suit these bullets.

To use them, you need well over 0.2" of freebore and a loaded round OAL at or around 2.700", otherwise you'll end up with the bullet base well below the case-shoulder. This not only limits loads and performance, but can easily result in excessive pressures.

If your loaded round OAL is in the 2.4-2.5" bracket with bullets on the lands, either have a gunsmith extend the throat or stick to 75-80.5gn bullets. The recently introduced 80.5gn Berger Fullbore is worth trying to see if your barrel likes it. It groups very well in some rifles and can be driven fast enough to perform well at 1,000 - although yet again, I suspect your chamber throat will be too short to get that level of performance within sensible pressures.

 

[Matt Pitchon]

I generally agree with Laurie's comment about freebore. But, as most things in shooting there are many ways approach a problem.

My gun is chambered for a PTG 223 Match chamber which I believe has a freebore of 0.068" which is well short of 0.200". I don't run into pressure issues or compress powder. The reason is the type of powder, which is 2000MR. I have posted about this before, so I won't bore you guys again. This is one of the few, but not only powder where this is possible.

I don't know what the freebore in a Savage, and it might well be an issue. Certainly with very heavy bullets, more freebore is better.

 

[memilanuk]

Matt,

That is exactly my hope with 2000MR and the 90s... I'd tried running the 90s with other powders - RE-15, N550, etc. and either couldn't make enough speed over a B82BT/N150 to make it worth messing with, or ran into scary temp/pressure issues. 2000MR is so much denser than Varget/RE-15, and seems better behaved thus far in my .308 Win than RE-17/N550, especially in a factory chamber where a loooong throat isn't always the case. I'm hoping it will prove the same in my 12 FTR .223...

Monte

 

[FroggyOne2]

I just tested the 2000MR and the powder load of 27.1 grns increased the speed another 150 fps. As for the BC on the Berger 90VLD, Matt, might want to check the Berrger website, but I believe they have the G7 BC on the 90VLD listed as being greater than that of the 6mm 105 hybrid bullet, it ain't by much though.

Back to the 2000MR powder, I was intensely excited with my findings when trying this powder. I am looking forward to working with it a whole lot more when the new bbl's get put on the actions.

 

[D.Kiff]

I would say the very best free bore length for the 90 VLD is .168 with a one and a half deg. lead. I would like for you to call me I have some info that would concreat this statement. Thanks Dave

 

[Laurie]

I would say the very best free bore length for the 90 VLD is .168 with a one and a half deg. lead. I would like for you to call me I have some info that would concreat this statement. Thanks Dave

Very Interesting! .... as they say. My very long-throat approach has worked superbly with 90s in 223R, but I've long believed that there is a lot of development and finding things out through trial and error to come. After all, people have been working on .308 Win for prone sling shooting at 1,000 yards since the 1960s, while .223 has not only had a shorter development history, but was mostly limited to Service Rifle until F/TR came along. And ..... even now, the development effort is heavily skewed to the older, 'safer' option.

Sadly, we don't have either MR2000 or AR-Comp in Europe, and it's debatable whether we'll get them even after the usual 1 to 2 years it takes from SHOT Show launch to arrival at the UK importer's premises for new powders. Propellants, as with other products, must go through a CE type approval process and Alliant ATK (unlike Hodgdon Powder) only spends the time and money if it believes there is a significant European market, so we don't see all new Alliant powders. We might get MR2000, but AR-Comp looks too heavily marketing orientated to .223 semi-auto rifles. Centrefire semi-autos are illegal in the UK, while many continental European countries (eg Italy, Spain) either have outright bans or a more restrictive licensing regime (France) on firearms using military cartridges (including civilian spin-offs such as .308 Win and .223 Rem). For this and other reasons, .223 Rem as a match cartridge is pretty well restricted to Germany and the UK.

 

[Dave L Kiff]

Laurie, The number is 541-826-5808. Give me a ring.

 

[flatlander]

Matt,
I also have a PTG 223 Match reamer, also with .068" freebore. I went in an additional .080" with a PTG .224 throater, which puts the bullet's bearing surface/boattail junction at or very slightly below the case's neck/shoulder junction when a Berger 90VLD is seated with .020" jam. I used a Lambeth/Kiff Micro stop collar on the throater, which is a pretty safe way to obtain the exact amount of freebore you're after. I could've gone deeper, but didn't know how fast or far the initial throat erosion during load development would go. Given the results I've had so far, I'll probably do the next 90gr bbl the same way.
Still haven't had time to get past the initial tests with 2000MR - but based on both yours & Randy's initial results, I'll be trying the ammo I have loaded with 2000 & 90s ASAP.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Dennis,

Just so that you know, the seating depth that I am using is 2.033 and allowing the bullet seat itself on the lands. This allows the bearing surface stay above the neck shoulder junction. Just so that you know as well, 25.0 grs of RL15 neverr showed prressure, even at 95 degrrees! The 27.1 grs of 2000MR was two tenths from presuure signs at 80 degrees. Those that have shot where I do, knows that the humidity here is almost always up there!

 

[Delaware_Ken]

Good Morning,

My Savage F/TR loves the 80 grain Berger VLD's in front of a stout load of Varget. I did a lot of load development with the 90's but never could get them to shoot well.

Ken

 

[FroggyOne2]

I feel that thrroating properly forrr the Berger 90 is very important. I feel that the bullet needs to be as far out of the case itself as much as possible!

 

[zx10mike]

73 grn bergers ltbt and varget gave me a 3.8 inch group at 500 yds at diggle a better shot would have done better.my berger manual will be here on monday so looking forward to having a play.

 

[cb1229]

Hey Laurie I have a Savage lrpv and it shoots the 90s and a friend has a Savage f/tr in223 and we shoot 90vlds in both and we use the load you came up with and we have them running 2850 at 2900 we had sticky bolts I shot mine at 400yd and it kept it at 1.068 and my friend went to a 1k F-class and shot a 578 out of 600 his first ever shoot the only thing we did to my gun was bed it in devcon friends gun bone stock both have over 2k rounds through them I have a savage 112 in a 220swift that might get one of the barrels.Im fortunate to live about an hour and a half from sharp shooter supply. Thanks for sharing your info with everybody.

 

[Texas Solo]

I considered buying the same rifle, but was encouraged to go with building a new one off my existing #10 action. The main consideration in doing so was the barrel. I'm using a Shilen Select Match Grade in .223 Wylde, 28" 1/7, as recommended, because of the throat length. My mentor is shooting the 90VLD, but I chose the 80VLD as I was told by many sources that the 90's are tough to get right. I had no problem finding the sweet spot with the 80's and MR2000.
Seated to the lands my loads measure 2.050 base to ogive. At 26.5 MR2000, I get 3000fps, .216" groups at 100yds, and sub MOA at 600yds.
I found that the MR2000 has a wide range of loading options, the Alliant specs are anemic to say the least. The MR2000 also meters VERY well, as opposed to the Varget, which was a PITA!