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Would I benefit from upgrading my dies?

Ralph Littlefield

I have been reloading since the late 60's and have always just used standard RCBS FL dies. My shooting is just casual benchrest and the maximum range that I have available is 300 yds.

The rifles I am most interested in improving the accuracy for are a Rem 700 BDL varmint in 243 and a Savage model 12fv varmint in 6.5 Creedmoor. Both just stock rifles.

My question is would better dies improve the quality of my ammo enough to make upgrading worth while?

If so, what would you suggest that I get? I would think that concentricity would be the area that would yield biggest gain, what else should I be thinking about? Would just adding a lee collet die be of value?
 
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Nothing wrong with RCBS dies. If you are happy with what you are seeing on target and you aren't over working your cases in the sizing operation, I wouldn't change a thing.

If you want to play around just for the fun of it to see if there is some improvement to be found, a Redding body die for case sizing combined with a Lee Collet die for the neck makes some good ammo in my experience. This is a nice low cost option for those that like to test things. Someone will come along shortly and tell me I'm full of it, but I've tested this stuff a lot and shot some fine groups with factory .243 and 22-250 cartridges. I've also shot some tiny groups with one of my BR guns experimenting using a Harrell's Precision bushing die (with the bushing removed) as a body die and using a Lee Collet die for the neck.

I wouldn't do this with a factory gun, but the other thing you could do at a greater expense is send Whidden 3 pieces of 3x fired brass (without full length sizing) and he will send you a custom die that matches your chamber. Wait time can be significant. IMO, it really isn't worth it on a factory gun, but it's not my money and time.

Hope this helps. Good shooting.
 
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Ralph Littlefield said:
My question is would better dies improve the quality of my ammo enough to make upgrading worth while?
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Do you have a way to measure the improvement? (Concentricity)

If you don't, you will not even know if the change helped or didn't. I spent several years of changing dies and practices to reduce contentricity. I learned a lot, but probably wasted $$ and time. Why? My concentricity wasn't that bad to start with and the improvement I was able to achieve will not be seen on the target.

Here is the Cliff notes on what I learned:

1. as mentioned the Redding Body die with the Lee collet die will result in case neck runout of around 0.001" TIR and is a very economical solution.
2. If your FL sizing die reduces the neck diameter excessively (and most do) and the expander has to enlarge the case neck 0.002" or more, it WILL pull the case neck off center when exiting and destroy concentricity. To compensate for this, I hone my die necks so the expander only increases the neck diameter by 0.0005". This will give you the straightest case necks, in my experience.
3. If you using bushing dies for FL or neck sizing, you may be disappointed by the concentricity results.
4. Don't automatically expect Redding Competition bullet seating dies to seat your bullets with low runout.

But realize you haven't mentioned what kind of accuracy you currently are achieving, or your optics, or other accuracy improvement steps you have taken. So I'm shooting in the dark, so to speak.
 
jepp2 said:
But realize you haven't mentioned what kind of accuracy you currently are achieving, or your optics, or other accuracy improvement steps you have taken. So I'm shooting in the dark, so to speak.
Click to expand...

Good point. There may be other things than the ammo that may yield greater improvements. I am not sure I know what they would be.

My optics are sporting scopes, a 10x Bushnell Banner on the 243, and a Nikon BDC 4x-12x on the 6.5 Creedmoor. Neither rifle is glass bedded, but I am working on changing that. My shooting is from a solid bench with an adjustable stand up front and a sand bag on the rear.
 
I would do a full benchrest case prep first of 100 new brass. Sort new brass by weight after uniforming the flash hole, neck turning, & trimming. Put in groups sorted by 3/10 grs. Test.

My old RCBS standard fl dies will work with neck turned brass , in 243 & 223.

A fl bushing die will increase case life & may improve accuracy in a factory rifle. In 243, size only 1/2 of the neck . I use a Redding Type S . Test with & without the expander.

Turned necks-no expander. Unturned necks- test with & without expander.

After all this, groups may get 1/4" smaller @ 100 yards and eliminate the flyers.



Makes for lots of shooting.
 
Ralph Littlefield said:
I have been reloading since the late 60's and have always just used standard RCBS FL dies. My shooting is just casual benchrest and the maximum range that I have available is 300 yds.

Has anyone ever critiqued you and your set up? A lot of people can’t take constructive criticism.

The rifles I am most interested in improving the accuracy for are a Rem 700 BDL varmint in 243 and a Savage model 12fv varmint in 6.5 Creedmoor. Both just stock rifles.

Bedded, pillared, do the rigs lend them selves to be good bench rigs?

My question is would better dies improve the quality of my ammo enough to make upgrading worth while?

A statement such as that, I take it you know you have an ammo issue?

If so, what would you suggest that I get? I would think that concentricity would be the area that would yield biggest gain, what else should I be thinking about?

Have you measured and checked concentricity?


Would just adding a lee collet die be of value?

Not if it is not fixing a problem.

IMO, shooting at 300 max, I would shuck both of what you have and go with a cartridge of less recoil/smaller case capacity. A Savage in 6BR with a good bag riding stock is about as cheap as you can get and easily put a huge smile on your face.
Take your 6.5 CM and spin a 6BR on it for cheap.
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Ralph Littlefield said:
I have been reloading since the late 60's and have always just used standard RCBS FL dies. My shooting is just casual benchrest and the maximum range that I have available is 300 yds.

The rifles I am most interested in improving the accuracy for are a Rem 700 BDL varmint in 243 and a Savage model 12fv varmint in 6.5 Creedmoor. Both just stock rifles.

My question is would better dies improve the quality of my ammo enough to make upgrading worth while?

If so, what would you suggest that I get? I would think that concentricity would be the area that would yield biggest gain, what else should I be thinking about? Would just adding a lee collet die be of value?
Click to expand...
I do not think you will see any huge change with other dies. If your not committed to stock factory rifles your biggest improvement that would allow you to continue your accuracy goals would be custom barrels. Remember, bullets and barrels. Without these 2 items being very good the rest can be like a dog chasing it's tail, never gonna get there.
 
I'm in the club that asserts that standard RCBS dies are capable of producing very precise reloads IF used properly.

To give you an idea, I have a Rem 700 that was re-barrelled to a 223 Rem w/ a 26", No 5 contour match barrel. The rifle was restocked with a B&C Metalist stock. I've shot sub 1/4" groups off the bench at 100 yards with reloads prepared with standard RCBS dies, full sized with a .001 to .002" shoulder bump. I also have a factory Weatherby Mark V, Supervarmint Master w/ a 26" heavy barrel in 223 Rem that shoots equally well again w/ reloads using RCBS standard dies. I must add that I'm not bench shooter so it's likely a benchrest guy would do a like better with this high end combo.

I do deburr primer flash holes, uniform primer pockets and used quality bullets, i.e. Nosler BT's. I set the COL and adjust the COL to give me the optimum results for a specific rifle.

As far as run out, I use a rubber "0" ring under the expander assembly that allows the expander to float which help reduce run out. I've also polished the expander button with very fine emery cloth to a "glass" like finish that reduces drag on the neck.

For full sizing I set the shoulder back .001 to .002" from a fired case from that specific rifle. I use Skip shims to adjust the amount of sizing. This is an effective, simple and cheap way to adjust sizing to produce the optimum sizing for a specific rifle.

Within limits, I believe the biggest variables in your case, may be the capability of the rifle / stock / scope system followed by the quality / suitability of the bullets / powder choice.
 
Ralph Littlefield said:
Probably average MOA.
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For your rifles and optics, that is very good accuracy and may well be near their limit.

I currently feel what is limiting me from shooting smaller groups consistently:
- inconsistent return to battery (use a Bald Eagle front rest with a rabbit ear squeeze rear bag)
- not using wind flags (I try to mitigate this by shooting on days with less wind, but I shoot in the MT wind for prairie dogs a month each year, so I know how much the wind can affect the flight of the bullet)
- tuning my loads to better match the node

But no matter where you are, there is always the challenge to improve accuracy by addressing additional items.
 
I have been using the same old Lyman FL 243 dies since I started reloading 1976. I've loaded some nice ammo w those dies. 1/4 " groups [some]. I did the Polish the pumpkin thing to the decapping rod years ago. Easy fix, cheap too. After I got into LRBR shooting .. I pulled The De-cap rod & pumpkin. Now I decap w/o sizing, clean, lube, size & then use a K&M expander button as a separate operation.. Small money the K&M expander thing. I really like not pulling the rod/pumpkin back up thru the necks of sized cases. & I think it causes less case stretching.. One other Gizmo you should have is that Sinclair set of nuts w/ holes. Pretty quick & easy to take a fired case & get the length to shoulder dimension. after that it is super easy to figure out if you are sizing back too many thous. If you want a pic of these simple tools, PM me your cell number. Good luck. Mike in Ct
 
mikeinct said:
One other Gizmo you should have is that Sinclair set of nuts w/ holes. Pretty quick & easy to take a fired case & get the length to shoulder dimension. after that it is super easy to figure out if you are sizing back too many thous. If you want a pic of these simple tools, PM me your cell number. Good luck. Mike in Ct
Click to expand...

I just ordered a Hornady lock-n-load headspace gauge that is used with a comparator. Is that similar to what you are talking about?
 
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