Would a 1:12 twist 308 stabilize the 185 Berger Hybrid?
- Thread starter jlow
- Start date
Thanks guys! Agreed that if the 185 hybrid work, it would be on the edge and so iffy..
I am also looking at the 185 Juggernauts and the 168 hybrids. It would seem that the 185 Juggernaut has both a higher weight and better BC than the 168 Hybrids. So is the only advantage of the 168 Hybrids be the shorter bearing surface? Is that enough to offset the other two?
I am also looking at the 185 Juggernauts and the 168 hybrids. It would seem that the 185 Juggernaut has both a higher weight and better BC than the 168 Hybrids. So is the only advantage of the 168 Hybrids be the shorter bearing surface? Is that enough to offset the other two?
I'm doing some testing now using this same bullet in my AI 308 with a 12 twist barrel. So far no signs of any eratic behavior and groups were in the 1" range at 300 yards I just need play with seating depth and see where they like to be shot in my rifle. I tested at my magazine length I may have to single feed them if it likes them seated longer than the magazine will allow.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
At mid range, esp with a 12 twist I'd take a serious look at the 155.5 Berger Full Bore and the Sierra 155 Palma [2156] bullet.
At mid range you get less recoil, fantastic accuracy and the wind drift difference isn't enough to make a difference. If you seat them long and get the right powder I'd guess you could get pretty good MV from the 24" barrel. Not the 3000+ you can get from a 30" but probably over 2800.
That's the direction I'd go if it were mine. (I've seen some pretty good wall decorations taken home by the 155s at mid range, with some really impressive scores.)
I haven't played with the Berger but the Sierra has a very short bearing surface and can be driven very fast before you see pressure. (and they come pointed from the factory)
At mid range you get less recoil, fantastic accuracy and the wind drift difference isn't enough to make a difference. If you seat them long and get the right powder I'd guess you could get pretty good MV from the 24" barrel. Not the 3000+ you can get from a 30" but probably over 2800.
That's the direction I'd go if it were mine. (I've seen some pretty good wall decorations taken home by the 155s at mid range, with some really impressive scores.)
I haven't played with the Berger but the Sierra has a very short bearing surface and can be driven very fast before you see pressure. (and they come pointed from the factory)
jlow,
Use the twist rate calculator on our main page under BALLISTICS to check and see what the stability factor is with your barrel length, twist rate and bullet. If you want to use one of our 185 grain offerings you may want to go to the 185 Juggernaut or 185 grain VLD target bullets. XTR has a good suggestion though. At 600 yards you may want to try something lighter with less recoil like the 168 grain Match Target Hybrid if you want to stick with that type of bullet or the 168 grain VLD OR 175 grain BT Target or VLD. These all call for a 1-13" twist or faster and should work really well in your 1-12" twist barrel. Testing and the target are the only way to know what your rifle may like. If you need any more help please feel free to contact us and thank you for trying our bullets!
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
Use the twist rate calculator on our main page under BALLISTICS to check and see what the stability factor is with your barrel length, twist rate and bullet. If you want to use one of our 185 grain offerings you may want to go to the 185 Juggernaut or 185 grain VLD target bullets. XTR has a good suggestion though. At 600 yards you may want to try something lighter with less recoil like the 168 grain Match Target Hybrid if you want to stick with that type of bullet or the 168 grain VLD OR 175 grain BT Target or VLD. These all call for a 1-13" twist or faster and should work really well in your 1-12" twist barrel. Testing and the target are the only way to know what your rifle may like. If you need any more help please feel free to contact us and thank you for trying our bullets!
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
Must say I am a bit overwhelmed with the possibilities! LOL! So thanks for all the suggestions but after I have more time to look at them in detail, I am sure I will have lots of questions. In the mean time:
Gstaylorg – Thanks for all the great suggestions!
JamesnTN – looks like we are in the same boat as the rifle I am working on is an AI AT 308 with 24†barrel. We should compare notes as I get further along.
Joe R – those JLK looks interesting. What is their availability like?
XTR – Have not run with the Sierra 155 Palma but mostly worked with the 175 SMK with my AR-10 but thinking of moving over to the VLD with the AI. Lighter weight bullet is a good idea…
Barefooter56 – thanks for the input. Agreed with both you and XTR about going with the lighter bullet for the 600, I guess I was a bit tunnel vision looking for the heavies and problems with going subsonic but that is for 1k…
One input I would like to make to Berger Bullet is it would really help new users if there were more information on the bullets on the website to help new user make the right choice. The good news is there appears to be a lot of choices, but the bad news is there are a lot of choices and it is frankly a bit bewildering…
4xforfun – BC is speed dependent, so what works for a 300 WSM may not work for a 308.
Gstaylorg – Thanks for all the great suggestions!
JamesnTN – looks like we are in the same boat as the rifle I am working on is an AI AT 308 with 24†barrel. We should compare notes as I get further along.
Joe R – those JLK looks interesting. What is their availability like?
XTR – Have not run with the Sierra 155 Palma but mostly worked with the 175 SMK with my AR-10 but thinking of moving over to the VLD with the AI. Lighter weight bullet is a good idea…
Barefooter56 – thanks for the input. Agreed with both you and XTR about going with the lighter bullet for the 600, I guess I was a bit tunnel vision looking for the heavies and problems with going subsonic but that is for 1k…
One input I would like to make to Berger Bullet is it would really help new users if there were more information on the bullets on the website to help new user make the right choice. The good news is there appears to be a lot of choices, but the bad news is there are a lot of choices and it is frankly a bit bewildering…
4xforfun – BC is speed dependent, so what works for a 300 WSM may not work for a 308.
Berger 175 OTM
I love this bullet, but nobody seems to talk much about it. I suppose since it's listed as a "Tactical" bullet.
In my rifle with an 11 twist 24 inch Bartlein barrel bullet seated to max magazine length for my AI mags (2.890) in Lapua brass, CCI250, 43.3 gr. Varget (2615 fps) it will shoot 3/8 inch or less at 100 yards all day long and performs EXTREMELY well all the way out to my range maximum of 822 yards. This is a moderate load in my rifle, is easy on brass and is my go to bullet unless it's super windy then I switch to the 185 Juggernaut same powder charge everything else the same.
For those of you reading this I'd highly recommend you try this bullet.
Danny
I love this bullet, but nobody seems to talk much about it. I suppose since it's listed as a "Tactical" bullet.
In my rifle with an 11 twist 24 inch Bartlein barrel bullet seated to max magazine length for my AI mags (2.890) in Lapua brass, CCI250, 43.3 gr. Varget (2615 fps) it will shoot 3/8 inch or less at 100 yards all day long and performs EXTREMELY well all the way out to my range maximum of 822 yards. This is a moderate load in my rifle, is easy on brass and is my go to bullet unless it's super windy then I switch to the 185 Juggernaut same powder charge everything else the same.
For those of you reading this I'd highly recommend you try this bullet.
Danny
Thanks dreever! Well this highlights my question to Barefooter56/Berger bullets which is what is the design philosophy behind these different but yet somewhat similar bullets?
For you, my question is if the cost is about the same and the Juggernaut bucks the wind better, why not standardize on the Juggernaut? Is it because the Berger 175 OTM can shoot well at mag length?
For you, my question is if the cost is about the same and the Juggernaut bucks the wind better, why not standardize on the Juggernaut? Is it because the Berger 175 OTM can shoot well at mag length?
To answer your question in my particular firearm in relatively calm to light wind conditions the 175 OTM groups better than the 185 Juggernaut at all yardages, especially at yardages of 600 and under. In the wind, it's a toss up but the superior BC of the Juggernaut at extended yardages seems to keep me on target better. I have considered that it may be just a perceived psychological advantage since the groups with both bullets open up due to the wind conditions. You know how that works, if the winds howling and all those BC numbers and accolades you've read about the Juggernaut are whirling thru your head as you reach for the next round does that influence your choice????? Maybe.
I guess to answer your question as best I can If I were forced to choose between the two and not have the other available it would be no contest, I'd choose the 175 OTM.
Danny
I guess to answer your question as best I can If I were forced to choose between the two and not have the other available it would be no contest, I'd choose the 175 OTM.
Danny
Thanks again for all the great input!
I’ve come to the realization that the 185 Hybrid is not for me. Of all the bullets discussed, my chance of getting them to work is a barrel a 1:12 twist is about the poorest. Based on twist rate calculator, it looks like I can use the 185 Juggernaults/168 Match Hybrid but as it turns out, I happen to have 3 boxes of 190 Match Grade VLD Target (no longer made by Berger) that I won at a recent match and although their SG value is not as good as the above two, there is a possibility of success – I figure I might as well get my feet wet with them.
They are also apparently the same as the 190 VLD Hunting except for slight differences in their jacket so I have a path forward if I end up liking them. These would be single fed.
I’ve come to the realization that the 185 Hybrid is not for me. Of all the bullets discussed, my chance of getting them to work is a barrel a 1:12 twist is about the poorest. Based on twist rate calculator, it looks like I can use the 185 Juggernaults/168 Match Hybrid but as it turns out, I happen to have 3 boxes of 190 Match Grade VLD Target (no longer made by Berger) that I won at a recent match and although their SG value is not as good as the above two, there is a possibility of success – I figure I might as well get my feet wet with them.
They are also apparently the same as the 190 VLD Hunting except for slight differences in their jacket so I have a path forward if I end up liking them. These would be single fed.
jlow,
Information over load is a hideous thing ! lol ! Our reloading manual can answer many of your questions and there are some tips on the VLD "Getting the VLD to shoot" that can be found on the website also. And you have us . TechSupport@bergerbullets.com . We are all shooters and are here to help you make an educated choice for the application you are using our bullets for. You got a lot of good feedback here and we can help you sort it out. As for bullet design. Short answer is Hunting , Target & OTM can be used for target shooting. So you can use the magazine if you have to With the Classic Hunter and OTM bullets. If you are a hunter only just stick with the hunting bullets due to the slightly thinner jacket so they do their thing. Give us a bump and thanks for using our bullets!
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
Information over load is a hideous thing ! lol ! Our reloading manual can answer many of your questions and there are some tips on the VLD "Getting the VLD to shoot" that can be found on the website also. And you have us . TechSupport@bergerbullets.com . We are all shooters and are here to help you make an educated choice for the application you are using our bullets for. You got a lot of good feedback here and we can help you sort it out. As for bullet design. Short answer is Hunting , Target & OTM can be used for target shooting. So you can use the magazine if you have to With the Classic Hunter and OTM bullets. If you are a hunter only just stick with the hunting bullets due to the slightly thinner jacket so they do their thing. Give us a bump and thanks for using our bullets!
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
Thanks a lot for your input Phil! I have in fact stocked up on the 185 Juggernauts (apart from the 190s which I got for free) as I stumbled on a good deal 
, and also the reloading manual and so good for reading material this winter, but I am sure I will make good use of your Tech Support.
Not a hunter but more of a technical/tactical shooter looking for precision in my rifles and loads thus the AI AT, but looking forward to having a good time reloading and shooting the Bergers!
, and also the reloading manual and so good for reading material this winter, but I am sure I will make good use of your Tech Support.Not a hunter but more of a technical/tactical shooter looking for precision in my rifles and loads thus the AI AT, but looking forward to having a good time reloading and shooting the Bergers!
jlow,
gstaylorg has good information in his posts. For more information on our bullets check the "Lines and Designs" in the drop down in the INFORMATION tab in the tool bar on our home page. Let us know on the help !
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
gstaylorg has good information in his posts. For more information on our bullets check the "Lines and Designs" in the drop down in the INFORMATION tab in the tool bar on our home page. Let us know on the help !
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech
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