World Championship Palma Match - Live Scores
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I'm not there now, left Wednesday, but wondered if this was going to happen since there were no US Palma shooters in the top 10 shootoff. It is however, a newer, younger, US team and hopefully we're building for the future. Most of the US shooters have been on a 15 day grind through the US LR Nationals and Fullbore Nationals before starting the Palma Championships. In fairness so had some of the foreign shooters, but 15 days of hard competition wears on you mentally and physically. If you've never done it you can't believe how tough this can be. Sometimes I have trouble recovering after a hard weekend! We're in a pretty deep hole but make no mistake about it, ALL of these shooters are some of the hardest holders the world can offer and I felt it a privlege just to be on the same range with them. My goal was a top 100 but got a 102 instead. I think I'd rather have finished somewhere in the 200's rather than be that close and no cigar! Actually I do have a cigar and am smoking it now 
clowdis said:I'm not there now, left Wednesday, but wondered if this was going to happen since there were no US Palma shooters in the top 10 shootoff. It is however, a newer, younger, US team and hopefully we're building for the future. Most of the US shooters have been on a 15 day grind through the US LR Nationals and Fullbore Nationals before starting the Palma Championships. In fairness so had some of the foreign shooters, but 15 days of hard competition wears on you mentally and physically. If you've never done it you can't believe how tough this can be. Sometimes I have trouble recovering after a hard weekend! We're in a pretty deep hole but make no mistake about it, ALL of these shooters are some of the hardest holders the world can offer and I felt it a privlege just to be on the same range with them. My goal was a top 100 but got a 102 instead. I think I'd rather have finished somewhere in the 200's rather than be that close and no cigar! Actually I do have a cigar and am smoking it now
Nice shooting! It was a crazy tough crowd. I shot my best ever and landed ~ 330th. Some really good shooters got chewed up on that 1000 yard line. Even some of us not so good shooters. ;-)
clowdis said:I'm not there now, left Wednesday, but wondered if this was going to happen since there were no US Palma shooters in the top 10 shootoff. It is however, a newer, younger, US team and hopefully we're building for the future. Most of the US shooters have been on a 15 day grind through the US LR Nationals and Fullbore Nationals before starting the Palma Championships. In fairness so had some of the foreign shooters, but 15 days of hard competition wears on you mentally and physically. If you've never done it you can't believe how tough this can be. Sometimes I have trouble recovering after a hard weekend! We're in a pretty deep hole but make no mistake about it, ALL of these shooters are some of the hardest holders the world can offer and I felt it a privlege just to be on the same range with them. My goal was a top 100 but got a 102 instead. I think I'd rather have finished somewhere in the 200's rather than be that close and no cigar! Actually I do have a cigar and am smoking it now
Hey Blair,
It was great meeting you and shooting with you last week, I didn't realize that you were on this board. I missed my goal too, a mental lapse on one single shot cost me 57 places in the agg! Tough crowd, no room for mistakes with those guys. Still had fun though, especially on the team days. That first team match on Thursday was the most fun I've had at a match in a long time. Look forward to running into you again somewhere!
Best,
Erik
Whew.... Long Haul as Mr Clowdis pointed out. Some of us on the team have been here since 13 July at just over a Month with only one day off. At least Four of us that I could think of off the top of my head.
The Brits are super tough. It shows that they shoot as a team at over 12 times a year I have been told. Team Matches are a way of life there like we shoot Individual matches here. Here in the USA shooting Team matches seems like an after thought at best. Not sure how you over come that type of commitment and training with as spread out as the USA is and the lack of funding to make it happen. We have some Extremely Talented shooters and Coaches on the USA Team, and I believe that talent took us to the SILVER Medal this year. The Australians and South Africa looked real tough this year as well, The real fight was for second place as we duked it out for two full days.
Watching people like Kent "The Machine" Reeve, and Trudie Fay... What a true pleasure that is.
RussT
The Brits are super tough. It shows that they shoot as a team at over 12 times a year I have been told. Team Matches are a way of life there like we shoot Individual matches here. Here in the USA shooting Team matches seems like an after thought at best. Not sure how you over come that type of commitment and training with as spread out as the USA is and the lack of funding to make it happen. We have some Extremely Talented shooters and Coaches on the USA Team, and I believe that talent took us to the SILVER Medal this year. The Australians and South Africa looked real tough this year as well, The real fight was for second place as we duked it out for two full days.
Watching people like Kent "The Machine" Reeve, and Trudie Fay... What a true pleasure that is.
RussT
At 800 yards the US Palma team did very well. Not too great of a difference in scores from the eventual winners. . At 900 and especially 1000 yards Great Britain dominated the Palma Match. The question should be asked, "Why did this occur".
I do believe that the US team had shooters who hold and break prone shots as well as any team in the world. In all likelihood U.S. team rifles/ammo were at least the equal of the other participating countries.
So what is left to discern? I come to the conclusion of strategies/coaching. Yes Great Britain has great shooters who work well together as a team. My premise is that Great Britain coaches may be the best in the world. So perhaps someone who fired could shed light on this issue.
Thank you, I have the utmost respect for all US team firing members.
Chuck
I do believe that the US team had shooters who hold and break prone shots as well as any team in the world. In all likelihood U.S. team rifles/ammo were at least the equal of the other participating countries.
So what is left to discern? I come to the conclusion of strategies/coaching. Yes Great Britain has great shooters who work well together as a team. My premise is that Great Britain coaches may be the best in the world. So perhaps someone who fired could shed light on this issue.
Thank you, I have the utmost respect for all US team firing members.
Chuck
chuckles said:
This has been very normal in recent Palma cycles. We have a rich shooting history in the US and have some of the finest individual shooters in the world, in any shooting discipline you can think of. Where the Brits have an advantage is that they shoot Fullbore as a team, most all of the time. It's really what they do and live for. They have it down to a science. Individual string-shooting is not their thrust. They also mound-shoot and you are forced to learn wind because consecutive shots being remotely similar are an anomaly.
How do you win any team match? You must establish a narrower wind parameter to fire all of your shots in than your opposition, communicate it between the coaches and have the discipline to not shoot outside of that parameter. Sounds easy enough, but is hard to execute.
As a UK shooter ‘Class X’ shooter – equivalent to US High Master – I suggest there are perhaps a few reasons why GB teams generally acquit themselves well in Palma type shooting = eg .308Win/155 grain projectiles, iron sights and sling support:
1. In the UK for perhaps the last 100 years, the vastly predominant form of target shooting with centre fire rifles has been with the current military calibre, fired from a sling supported iron sighted rifle. Little other shooting in comparison has taken place although F class shooting has gained popularity in recent years. This is perhaps not the case in the US where a far wider diversity of target shooting disciplines are practised?
2. Such shooting is currently restricted to .308W rifles firing 155 grain ammunition, generally loaded with 155 grain Sierra 2155, 2156 or Berger 155.5 bullets.
3. Whilst almost all open competitions other than the Bisley main meeting now allow handloads, the maximum bullet weight allowed is invariably 156 grains. Berger 155.5s and Sierra 2156’s are perhaps the most loaded projectiles with a small smattering of others. This means that UK prone shooters seldom, if ever, fire any ammunition than ‘Palma Spec’ cartridges. This undoubtedly means that shooters and coaches become as familiar as possible with the wind effects on quality 155 grain projectiles fired at ~3000fps.
4. String shooting is almost unheard of – individual competitions are generally squadded 3 to a target with each shooter taking turns to fire individual shots until all shooters are complete. From the time the target appears from the ‘pit’ after the previous shot is marked, 45 seconds are allowed for the next shooter to fire his shot. The result is that ‘waiting for a mean condition’ is not really possible and the shooter has to go on whatever wind call he thinks is correct when the target presents. I suggest that along with point ‘3’, this could mean that UK Palma type shooters and coaches are exposed to the maximum as regards wind effects on Palma spec ammunition.
5. There is really only one 1000yard shooting range easily accessible to civilian shooters in the more densely populated, wealthier part of the UK – Bisley. There are probably 30 million people living within a 90 minute drive of Bisley which probably includes the majority if not all of the Palma team. This makes team training far easier to achieve. This can only help as compared with countries as large as the US or Australia where to get from one side to the other is a long haul flight. The UK by comparison is ~ 600 miles top to bottom.
So perhaps the UK, by dint of the reasons above has embedded advantages. However, if it wasn’t for US barrel and bullet makers exporting their quality products to the UK, then UK shooting would be in difficulty as we have no quality bullet makers in the UK and no well established barrel makers. So perhaps honours even in large part!
1. In the UK for perhaps the last 100 years, the vastly predominant form of target shooting with centre fire rifles has been with the current military calibre, fired from a sling supported iron sighted rifle. Little other shooting in comparison has taken place although F class shooting has gained popularity in recent years. This is perhaps not the case in the US where a far wider diversity of target shooting disciplines are practised?
2. Such shooting is currently restricted to .308W rifles firing 155 grain ammunition, generally loaded with 155 grain Sierra 2155, 2156 or Berger 155.5 bullets.
3. Whilst almost all open competitions other than the Bisley main meeting now allow handloads, the maximum bullet weight allowed is invariably 156 grains. Berger 155.5s and Sierra 2156’s are perhaps the most loaded projectiles with a small smattering of others. This means that UK prone shooters seldom, if ever, fire any ammunition than ‘Palma Spec’ cartridges. This undoubtedly means that shooters and coaches become as familiar as possible with the wind effects on quality 155 grain projectiles fired at ~3000fps.
4. String shooting is almost unheard of – individual competitions are generally squadded 3 to a target with each shooter taking turns to fire individual shots until all shooters are complete. From the time the target appears from the ‘pit’ after the previous shot is marked, 45 seconds are allowed for the next shooter to fire his shot. The result is that ‘waiting for a mean condition’ is not really possible and the shooter has to go on whatever wind call he thinks is correct when the target presents. I suggest that along with point ‘3’, this could mean that UK Palma type shooters and coaches are exposed to the maximum as regards wind effects on Palma spec ammunition.
5. There is really only one 1000yard shooting range easily accessible to civilian shooters in the more densely populated, wealthier part of the UK – Bisley. There are probably 30 million people living within a 90 minute drive of Bisley which probably includes the majority if not all of the Palma team. This makes team training far easier to achieve. This can only help as compared with countries as large as the US or Australia where to get from one side to the other is a long haul flight. The UK by comparison is ~ 600 miles top to bottom.
So perhaps the UK, by dint of the reasons above has embedded advantages. However, if it wasn’t for US barrel and bullet makers exporting their quality products to the UK, then UK shooting would be in difficulty as we have no quality bullet makers in the UK and no well established barrel makers. So perhaps honours even in large part!
Very well said sir.
As much as most folks from the USA like to think that we are the leader in all things shooting... That sir is not always the case. This Particular Event.. Fullbore and Palma comes from the UK and its former colonies.... it is THEIR game that we play. I see over half the 308 shooters here in the USA using much Heavier projectiles to shoot at 1000 yards and whine about using the 155 class projectiles.
The British Team is top notch no doubt about it.
Russ T
As much as most folks from the USA like to think that we are the leader in all things shooting... That sir is not always the case. This Particular Event.. Fullbore and Palma comes from the UK and its former colonies.... it is THEIR game that we play. I see over half the 308 shooters here in the USA using much Heavier projectiles to shoot at 1000 yards and whine about using the 155 class projectiles.
The British Team is top notch no doubt about it.
Russ T
Rtheurer said:Chuck
I pretty much laid it out. Funding and being able to work together more often. Or maybe we need some of the folks here who ask "why" to either donate or try out for the coaches spot
Russ,
I watched the scores come up on the last day of the Palma matches. The Brits were way ahead of the US at 1,000 yds. They were finished while we were about 2/3rds through the teams. To me this would indicate that the Brits could have been "chasing the spotter" while the US might have beed trying to put a "number" on for each shot. Some days you can do this and get away with it and even improve your scores. Do you think they may have been doing this? Opinion I know but still I respect yours
Erud said:clowdis said:I'm not there now, left Wednesday, but wondered if this was going to happen since there were no US Palma shooters in the top 10 shootoff. It is however, a newer, younger, US team and hopefully we're building for the future. Most of the US shooters have been on a 15 day grind through the US LR Nationals and Fullbore Nationals before starting the Palma Championships. In fairness so had some of the foreign shooters, but 15 days of hard competition wears on you mentally and physically. If you've never done it you can't believe how tough this can be. Sometimes I have trouble recovering after a hard weekend! We're in a pretty deep hole but make no mistake about it, ALL of these shooters are some of the hardest holders the world can offer and I felt it a privlege just to be on the same range with them. My goal was a top 100 but got a 102 instead. I think I'd rather have finished somewhere in the 200's rather than be that close and no cigar! Actually I do have a cigar and am smoking it now
Eric,
I'm sure we'll meet again somewhere and I really enjoyed shooting with you also. You do well in a team environment, keep it up!!!
Hey Blair,
It was great meeting you and shooting with you last week, I didn't realize that you were on this board. I missed my goal too, a mental lapse on one single shot cost me 57 places in the agg! Tough crowd, no room for mistakes with those guys. Still had fun though, especially on the team days. That first team match on Thursday was the most fun I've had at a match in a long time. Look forward to running into you again somewhere!
Best,
Erik
Blair
I was very very lucky and got to watch the whole match play out in front of me with my eye in the spotting scope and a headset on with all the coaches giving commands and shooters responding. It was like watching a pro football game with you being connected to the communications gear on the side line and Quarterback. Simply amazing. So folks can say what they want.. I got to be there and thank my lucky stars that I did.
The wind was such that you had about 2 or 3 Min to get as many rounds down range as you could before disaster struck. Then it was a hold up until the air resembled anything worth shooting in that did not cost points. I can tell you that there was some caution involved so as to not loose too many points being brave or unsure. When the Velocity is up to what it was, its real easy to dump points fast on subtle directional changes that that are hard to see when the flag is at full value as you very well know. Also to point out that Team USA came off the line faster than all others on every other yard line except the last one the last day.
I saw some small things that could be worked on but all in all I thought they did a Fantastic job and nothing some Team training sessions would not fix in short order.
Russ T
I was very very lucky and got to watch the whole match play out in front of me with my eye in the spotting scope and a headset on with all the coaches giving commands and shooters responding. It was like watching a pro football game with you being connected to the communications gear on the side line and Quarterback. Simply amazing. So folks can say what they want.. I got to be there and thank my lucky stars that I did.
The wind was such that you had about 2 or 3 Min to get as many rounds down range as you could before disaster struck. Then it was a hold up until the air resembled anything worth shooting in that did not cost points. I can tell you that there was some caution involved so as to not loose too many points being brave or unsure. When the Velocity is up to what it was, its real easy to dump points fast on subtle directional changes that that are hard to see when the flag is at full value as you very well know. Also to point out that Team USA came off the line faster than all others on every other yard line except the last one the last day.
I saw some small things that could be worked on but all in all I thought they did a Fantastic job and nothing some Team training sessions would not fix in short order.
Russ T
clowdis said:To me this would indicate that the Brits could have been "chasing the spotter" while the US might have beed trying to put a "number" on for each shot. Some days you can do this and get away with it and even improve your scores. Do you think they may have been doing this? Opinion I know but still I respect yours
Those 'some days' on which they 'get away with it' have a habit of coinciding with the Palma matches! 6 out of the last 7 matches, in fact.
..
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