Working up a load

[TroyMN]

Not including your guns that shoot .1's or low 2's. How many rounds does it take YOU to find the correct combination for a certain bullet? Let's say using one powder type. Changing seating depth, charge wt, primers, neck tension or what ever else you test. How many rounds before you give up on that bullet and try another.
Thanks Troy

Another question if you have a bench rest gun that shoots .1's all day long. Take same gun and you just take a random load from publish loading manual what range would that 5 shot group fall in? (ie what's the worst it would shoot?)

 

[amlevin]

Not including your guns that shoot .1's or low 2's. How many rounds does it take YOU to find the correct combination for a certain bullet?

I've found that the good old, time tested Audette Ladder test will show me the load range to work in for a specific rifle, usually in a dozen rounds. Once that node is identified 25 rounds for load weight then another 25 rounds for OAL experimentation. All rounds go over the chronograph while developing so I have data for every cartridge, load, length.

For some rifles I'll just try a box of factory ammo and see how it does. If it's good then I'll just dupe the factory load.

 

[357Mag]

Troy -

Howdy !

When working up my .224" cal wildcat loads ( no specific load data out there ), it took me 450rnd until
I had powder/bullet/primer/neck tension/seating depth all hunky dorry ( 24" 1-14 5-groove ).
Five different powders tried, 4 different primers ( mostly LR MAGNUM ), and 3 bullet weights.
It proved to be worth the effort, accuracy wise... fer sher. That barrel ended-up lasting over 3,400rnds; before it ever keyholed its first bullet.

Re-barrelled in a 28" 1-8 5-groove, I went w/ just one bullet brand/type/wt. I tried 3 powders, and had the load all figured out within 96rnds.

At the other extreme: I ran the better-part of a 500ct bag of Rem .35cal 150PSPS down my
Marlin M-336 XLR, before I finally obtained a load that would shoot 5/8" 5-shot groups @ 100.
This included the apparent capability of the gun/cartridge combo; to shoot as-small-as 3-shots into
.200"...... when I had the "condition" figured out. Thang is...... I'm now out of 150 PSPs, and I read theat Rem is going away from providing reloading components anymore !?!

AAAAaackkk !!

With regards,
357Mag

 

[Judd]

Great post! I was talking to some of the experienced guys today at a shoot and they just seem to be an encyclopedia of loads and when I mentioned the ladder test and group testing they said all that stuff did was confuse them. I was wondering the same as the OP and was going to post something to this exact topic.

To answer your question...I have just under 200 Amax rounds shot and as much as I want them to work like they do in my Creedmoor I am throwing in the towel and picking up some Berger's this week.

 

[necchi]

How many rounds before you give up on that bullet and try another.

Around 150, before I give up and move on. I'm not that bound and determined to shoot any one particular bullet to have to use 500 just to find the right powder, primer and load for it.
The remaining 50 or so can be used for trading fodder.

random load from publish loading manual what range would that 5 shot group fall in? (ie what's the worst it would shoot?)

Can't answer that one, I generally do more research than just closing my eyes and throwing a dart at the load page to pick a load worth experimenting with.

There's so much info out there for specific gun and bullet performance being shared in books and internet blogs/forums and manufactures data that random testing isn't really necessary.
Don't get me wrong, experimenting with various bullets and loads is what gains one knowledge and sometimes much needed experience, but after doing enough of it, hopefully that knowledge and experience starts to sink in,,

 

[LHSmith]

Another question if you have a bench rest gun that shoots .1's all day long.

Such a gun does not exist......despite all the internet claims of non-competition (b)enchresters.....the AGGREGATE RECORDS for the various sanctioned BR short range (100/ 200/300 yd) classes may be in the mid to high ones (MOA).....the fact is those guns will NOT do that day after day...if they did the same gun/barrel /shooter combination would win repeatedly. The Aggregate records would entail a minimum of 5 groups of 5 shots for a single yardage shot over several hour period. Granted some shooters have become legendary in their ability to stay among the top finishers garnering HOF points.......BUT.....to shoot consistently to sub .2 MOA level is just not humanly possible due to too many variables, i.e. range conditions, maintaining load tune over the course of the day, and the shooter would have to have flawless gun handling. I believe Gene Beggs has not even witnessed that level of shooting consistancy in his 100 yd. indoor shooting tunnel.
The only way it might be possible is in an indoor tunnel with a machine rest, such as used by Berger, Sierra, etc. I do not have access to that kind of data.

 

[amlevin]

Another question if you have a bench rest gun that shoots .1's all day long.

Such a gun does not exist......despite all the internet claims of non-competition (b)enchresters.....the AGGREGATE RECORDS for the various sanctioned BR short range (100/ 200/300 yd) classes may be in the mid to high ones (MOA).....the fact is those guns will NOT do that day after day...if they did the same gun/barrel /shooter combination would win repeatedly. The Aggregate records would entail a minimum of 5 groups of 5 shots for a single yardage shot over several hour period. Granted some shooters have become legendary in their ability to stay among the top finishers garnering HOF points.......BUT.....to shoot consistently to sub .2 MOA level is just not humanly possible due to too many variables, i.e. range conditions, maintaining load tune over the course of the day, and the shooter would have to have flawless gun handling. I believe Gene Beggs has not even witnessed that level of shooting consistancy in his 100 yd. indoor shooting tunnel.
The only way it might be possible is in an indoor tunnel with a machine rest, such as used by Berger, Sierra, etc. I do not have access to that kind of data.

Unless you're shooting an Unlimited (Rail Gun). The aggregate records for those are sub .2"

It IS possible outside those controlled environments you mentioned.

 

[Win94ae]

Not including your guns that shoot .1's or low 2's. How many rounds does it take YOU to find the correct combination for a certain bullet?

I've found that the good old, time tested Audette Ladder test will show me the load range to work in for a specific rifle, usually in a dozen rounds.

I use the same method and I can usually find a load in 10 rounds total.
Here is load development 2 days ago.
[youtube]http://youtu.be/0TEif9MYI-E[/youtube]
That is 6 shots of ladder, and 4 shots to test... which made an iron sighted 3 shot, (after applying Sight Black,) 300 yard group at 1.25moa.

How many rounds before you give up on that bullet and try another.

I've never given-up on the bullet, I've never found a bullet that could not shoot sub-moa with any of my rifles.
I have tried different powder when I didn't find acceptable precision.

[edit]
I was trying Varget before that ladder test and must have fired 45 shots total before I went to IMR 4064. Looking back I think I had a few potential loads but my rifle needed a little tweaking.
[/edit]

Note: Using last night's pizza box as a target is the key to success!

 

[TroyMN]

Thank you very much for the info on the ladder test. I had to look up more information about it. http://kingfisher.0catch.com/guns/laddertest.explanation.html#Loaddevelopment
After reading this the light bulb turned on! Now I understand why some target shooters can just throw charges for the cases vs weighing every one down to .05 grains. I can also see it on my old targets, if I did not rezero between groups, it kinda walks its way up the target and usually the best 5 shoot groups are similar heights to the groups .5 grains heavier or lighter.
I am excited to just try a new bullet now and see how fast this can lead me to that best combination. I hope 200yards will be far enough for this to work. That is the furthest our club has. Also I understand a little more about the BOSS system that I have on 2 of my guns. I never really used it to help improve group size. Now it seems maybe it could help me if I wanted the fasted load tuned to group better.
In a good quality barrel (match) if the harmonics are really off, does it usually still shoot better than 1.5MOA?
Whats up with the guns that shoot 5 inch groups with the wrong ammo? My old Reminton 760? the auto loader, after that gun went right to bolts because I hated the idea of missing a shot because of the gun, not me. Also the Mosin Nagant suplus rifles I heard they shoot in the 3+ MOA range with a hand load do you think you get that to shoot 1 MOA, not that I want to.
Thank you again for you input.
Troy

 

[amlevin]

A question about the BOSS system.

If working up a load is done to find that optimal point for the bullet to exit the barrel, controlling harmonics through powder charge, and the BOSS controls the harmonics through it's own method, how does one know when each is optimally adjusted? Is it not possible for the load to overcome maladjustment of the BOSS? The BOSS to "cover up" a bad load?

Inquiring minds want to know :-\

 

[TroyMN]

A question about the BOSS system.

If working up a load is done to find that optimal point for the bullet to exit the barrel, controlling harmonics through powder charge, and the BOSS controls the harmonics through it's own method, how does one know when each is optimally adjusted? Is it not possible for the load to overcome maladjustment of the BOSS? The BOSS to "cover up" a bad load?

Inquiring minds want to know :-\

I am sure there can be a lot of over lap tuning with each. The story I heard way back when is the A-bolts would not shoot well, quite common. Customers would send back to Browning and they would wack off a little of the barrel and re crown it, mail it back......Logic to me seems the BOSS was a tool so that process would not be needed. Again I adjusted it ONCE to what the book said for my certain caliber, and thought it was nice to have a muzzle break while shooting. Trully spoiled me, 22-250 with boss to a .308 with no muzzle break. You can feel 50 rounds when done with the .308, my Abolt varminters just sat there on the sand bags.
How much do you think changing scopes effects the harmonics of the gun? Going from the little 2.5-8 VXiii to a two pound behemouth 6-25 with scope level and turrets ect. Have you hear of anyone having issues with scope change, Leupold FX-12 to a Sightron SIII 10-50? I am sure some target shooters did that change once-upon-a-time.

 

[amlevin]

[
How much do you think changing scopes effects the harmonics of the gun?

Of the gun? Maybe a little. But since scopes are mounted on the actions which are either totally glued or bedded into the stock, I would guess not that much. The barrel is what's doing the majority of the dancing around, at least in my mind.

I guess the same question could be asked when discussing one piece vs two piece scope mounts. :-\

 

[dmickey]

Troy -

Howdy !

When working up my .224" cal wildcat loads ( no specific load data out there ), it took me 450rnd until
I had powder/bullet/primer/neck tension/seating depth all hunky dorry ( 24" 1-14 5-groove ).
Five different powders tried, 4 different primers ( mostly LR MAGNUM ), and 3 bullet weights.
It proved to be worth the effort, accuracy wise... fer sher. That barrel ended-up lasting over 3,400rnds; before it ever keyholed its first bullet.

Re-barrelled in a 28" 1-8 5-groove, I went w/ just one bullet brand/type/wt. I tried 3 powders, and had the load all figured out within 96rnds.

At the other extreme: I ran the better-part of a 500ct bag of Rem .35cal 150PSPS down my
Marlin M-336 XLR, before I finally obtained a load that would shoot 5/8" 5-shot groups @ 100.
This included the apparent capability of the gun/cartridge combo; to shoot as-small-as 3-shots into
.200"...... when I had the "condition" figured out. Thang is...... I'm now out of 150 PSPs, and I read theat Rem is going away from providing reloading components anymore !?!

AAAAaackkk !!

With regards,
357Mag

Totally untrue. Remington said in an e-mail the following:

No that is not true. We will be producing components again soon. But at this time the need & want for loaded ammunition is more important. So all of our resources are going into loaded ammo.

 

[jo191145]

The Audette will work at 200yds just fine.

Start with a clean barrel.
Fire five foulers at the starting charge weight with the powder/bullet combo to be tested that day.
Commence the ladder.
You should be marking the shots on a seperate target on the bench numerically. Along with chrono data if possible.
Pick a day with as light of conditions as possible.

You've just saved yourself some components.
Next you need to explore the nodes with some 5 shot groups.

Now heres a tip that goes against all reason and what little science I know so take it with as many grains of salt as you wish.
If your Audette looks awesome with a super accurate node bigger than a truck and subsequent 5 shot groups stink. STOP!
You may wish to try some radical seating depth chamges in a new gun/bullet combo but.......

What I've found (which defies reason and elicits laughter) is the Audette tells you where your gun wants to shoot not where it will shoot.
Usually in this scenario a powder/bullet change is in order.