Word of Caution to you Savage Shooters

[Rustystud]

Savage Shooters:

Head Spacing is of the utmost importance. I have read forum responses that are scary, written by folks who have a name in the business.

I have had a number of Savage Rifles sent to me for work that have already been rebarreled or have had their factory barrels removed.

When I or any other gunsmith works on a rifle and have been asked to chamber an new barrel or reinstall an existing barrel it usually is set to the cartridge SAAMI specs. This is done with a set of Go and No Go Gauges. Some shooters will send some of their loads so the smith can headspace off the cartridge itself. The barrel should be marked to the specific chambering and spec. You as a Savage shooter have a responsibility to properly identify your cartridge and specific information. Failure to do so may get you into trouble with both the BATF and get yourself sued if there is a catistrophic failure resulting in property damage, injury or death.

When you get your rechambered rifle back from the smith, and before you shoot it with reloaded ammunition you should measure your ammunition and check to make sure it is within SAAMI specs. If your cases are slightly undersized you may have a case seperation. This can be very danderous.

The advantage of reloading is that you can customize your ammo to shoot at peak performance in your gun. The idea is to load your ammo to the gun. Not adjust your gun to the ammo.

Just a word of advice.
Rustystud

 

[chuckw2]

Excellent advice Rusty, I had Dave Kiff make go-no go gages for all of my Savage switch barrels.

Chuck

 

[Eddie Harren]

Rusty, excellent post. I'll add also, be sure to have your FL or, "bump" die, set correctly. Moving the shoulder back excessivly will lead to head separations.

 

[tootalloutdoors]

I'm having a barrel made by pac-nor right now for my savage mod.112. The cal. is 6mm br .272 neck. I do not know anything on this subject and told the guy that I wanted something like .90 freebore???? Hesaid to load a couple of dummy rounds and send those to him so he could go off those. I told him that in the past I had always seated the bullet for the existing chamber. I was told to just go with one of the longer bullets that I planned on shooting and seat buy the book. It's a 12 twist barrel and the longest bullets I planed on shooting were berger 80+gr. and Fowler 80gr...Does this sound right? If so about how long should I seat a berger or fowler 80gr? I'm not sure if I can get ant fowlers in time, I calling him today. Any how if this sounds ok. what o.a.l. am I looking at w/lapua brass??? Thanks tootalloutdoors

 

[chuckw2]

TooTall,
You can play with the seating depth of the bullet all you want to find what your rifle likes. You cannot play with head space. To set the head space on Savage rifles I always use a go-no go gages made by PTG. I know some people use a fired case to set the head space, but I am always afraid to do it that way. Having the head space set up properly for your cartridge is critical for safety reasons...


Chuck

 

[Rustystud]

Headspacing and throating are totally different measurments.

Headspacing

With the 6 BR the case is considered a rimless case and measures from an imaginary line,datum line) located half way between the shoulder neck juncture and the shoulder body juncture and the case head surface. This measurement idealy remains constant. Because there is a small space needed to allow the bolt to close. Cases do what is called fire form to the dimensions of the chamber. Therefore cases tend to grow. This is why we have to trim cases from time to time. There is an industry standard known as SAAMI Small ARMs and Ammunition Institute most manufacture are members of the SAAMI organization. Theses standards are used so the manufactures/gunsmiths can get product liability insurance. They make it so companies can make firearms and ammunition that can be safely used in one anothers firearm. SAAMI is simular to SAE in the automotive industry.

Most go and no-go headspacing gauges differ in measured length by .0035 to .0040 and establish the SAAMI spec for a specific cartridge. Target shooters often use what are termed tight chambers this means either shorter or smaller diameter chambers. Hunters use a looser chamber/headspacing for the acceptance of all factory ammunitions, and dementional changes caused by temperature and other conditions.

Most reloading dies are a tiny bit on the short side. Improperly adjusted dies will bump the case shoulder back making the case to short for the chamber. This causes excessive headspacing,gap between bolt face and case head). If this is just a few thousants your cases will stretch getting thinner at the web with each resizing. After a few reloads you will have a case head seperation. This can be catistrophic, ie: harmful of fatal. I see many Savage rifles,switch barrel models) that are rebarreled by their owners who use a case and not the SAAMI gauges. The barrel and action often is out of SAAMI spec. This may not be a problem if the ammunition is fired once and discarded. But it can be a real problem if the case has had the shoulder bumped back and then factory ammo will not chamber at all or you have a real big bang.

Throating

Most standard reamers cut the throat to an adverage length for a specific length bearing surfaced bullet. This depth can be adjusted by bullet seating depth within a few thousants +/-.

Custom dies cut the chamber throat to a specified/predetermined depth.

Many gunsmiths have their reamer maker cut their reamers with little or no throat. Then come back with a throating reamer and cut a custom throat and lead.

As the old machinest saying goes it is easier to remove metal than replace metal.

We all know when we shoot a rifle every shot erodes the throat a little. Many target shooters measure between firings,every 100 or so) and adjust their seating dies to keep the bullet engagement in the riflings constant. If they are loading bullets with a jump they try to keep the jump consistant.

I hope this has clarified the topic a little. I am sure I will get some feed back as others have their own opinions.

Good luck and Safe Shooting
Rustystud

 

[tootalloutdoors]

rustystud. O.K. I pretty much followed what you described to me. One question I have right now though is,"how do I set up my sizing die correctly"? The die being used initially will be a redding "s" f/l sizing die. I ordered two bushings -.267, .268.
Even if I buy a go-no go guage I'm still not sure how to set my sizing die correctly, I guess. People talk about bumping the shoulder .x thou. or .xx thou.. How is that measured. I understand where the shoulder is but if I put my mic there I'm just eye balling. Can these questions be answered verbally? Thanks tootalloutdoors... I may be doing it correctly also right now. Wouldn't that be something.. ha-ha..

 

[Rustystud]

tootalloutdoors:

Take a fire formed piece of brass. Remove the depriming rod from your sizer die. Now your die is only going to be sizing two areas of your brass. ONE, the neck and the other the case web.
Run press ram up with a case in it. screw the die down onto the extended case with your hand until it bottoms out on the case. Then lower the ram and adust the die down 1/4 turn. Return the ram to the up position. Then back it down again. Look at the case an you will see a line formed on the case neck where the die had resized the neck. Repeat the process, keep adujusting the die down until you reach the case neck shoulder juncture then stop adjusting. The feel in the loader handle will change whe you reach the shoulder, it will tighten up,never force anything). When you get to the neck shoulder juncture while full length sizing and go any further you will begin bumping the shoulder. Another way to prevent this is to take two sizing dies. Bore the top out of one and make just a body sizing die out of it. Don't adjust the second sizing die with a shoulder in it below the neck shoulder juncture.

You will develope a lot of experience sizing and measuring. Remember brass has a memory. You will find your die may be adjusted .002 short an the brass springs back due to the fact it has memory. In years past BR shooters just neck sized. The brasss was fire formed to the chamber and only the neck needed resizing. Todya the school of thought of many BR shooters is to full length size everytime but have your chamber cut and head spaced tight. Brass will last many reloadings if it is not allowed to grow and have to be trimmed after each firing.
Hope this has answered your question.
Rustystud

 

[USAPatriot]

The whole kit is around $30. If you have a Stoney Point O.A.L. gage all you need is the insert which is $6 or so.

I think this should read, "If you have a Stoney Point bullet comparator all you need is the insert which is $6 or so." -Rod-

 

[chino1969]

Fellows I agree that go-no go gauges are the accepted and safe method for setting headspace on a Savage switch barrel but I use a fired case that has had the shoulder bumped .001 which is what my re-sizing die is set to. When I swap out a barrel, I remove the firing pin and develop a 'feel' for this case when the bolt is cammed down. I then remove the case and remove the barrel nut and screw the old barrel off. I install the new barrel along with the barrel nut, insert the case with the bolt until I feel the barrel bottom out against the case shoulder. I finger tighten the barrel and the nut against the recoil lug and open and close the bolt until I am a little tighter with the new barrel than I was with the old. I then torque the barrel nut to approx. 35 ft/lbs. and perform the same method of camming the bolt down on the fired case. Sometimes I have to loosen the barrel nut and repeat the above procedure until it is right. This method works well for me and my brass fits perfectly. I don't recommend this for everyone and I'm not saying that it is better than go no go gauges; I use what works for me.
Regards,
Chino69

 

[Rustystud]

Chino69:

What you have said works fine... But you have now created a custom sized chamber. For your custom sized ammo. I am assuming you are a private individual and this is your personal gun. If you decide to sell this gun down the road. Do you sell it as it is or do you reset the headspace to a SAAMI spec cartridge?

I on the other hand am a licensed gunsmith, the federal law requires that I identify the chambering and my name on the barrel. Lets say I mark it as a "308 Chino" and head space it to your case spec. That would be OK. It is identified as a "wildcat cartridge". Lets say it is marked as a .308 Win but headspaced off your bumped back case. The new buyer tries to shoot factory spec .308 Win ammo. He has to force the bolt closed. Probably want fit. Lets reverse the situation a little. Lets say you are blowing out the shoulder .0007 and your headspaceing is set for such a change. Then you sell the gun and the new owner reads on the barrel .308 Win and buys a box of ammo at Walmart. He goes home an starts shooting. the second time he fires he has a catistrophic case failure that causes a catistorpihic receiver failure. The shooter or the bystander gets seriously injured or killed. The DA looks at this as a neglegent homocide, manslaughter in my state. The lawyers, engineers and judge and jury look at this as recless endangerment, unprofessional conduct and they sue your back side off.

There are reasons for the SAAMI specs, a legit, licensed and insured gunsmith can not get professional liability insurance if he chambers outside of the SAAMI specs. Some will say this is bull. Ask them to read their policy carefully. The may say I did not see that before. Most insurance policies ask both if the gunsmith does "wildcat chambering and if he/or she uses go/no-go gauges when chambering".

Cases are brass,very maliable and soft. Case gauges are made of tool steel and precision ground,go and no-go .0035 difference in OAL)and very hard. Therefore if you are setting your headspace of cases and not gauges you can't guarrentee your headspacing is within SAAMI spec. Doing it with gauges is the industry standard.

The Savage Bolt Action gives the private gun owner the ability to rebarrel witout a lathe. There is not precise shoulder to meat the reciver or lug. The headspacing can be set with an adjustable shoulder contact.

There are numerous poster on this and almost any shooting forums that use unacceptable practices in their "gunsmithing". Most are not licensed, insured and/or formally trained as a gunsmith.

Rustystud

 

[chino1969]

Rustystud,
Yes I am aware of all you have mentioned and if I were to ever sell the rifle, the barrel would be headspaced with a SAAMI go-no go gauge. Yes I have a custom chamber and am aware of that. I am a private individual and went with a single shot Savage for my live varmint, casual shooting rifle. I think it's good that you brought this up because there are alot of people who may have a misguided approach to changing their own barrels with the Savage barrel nut. All my barrels have been chambered with my own spec'ed reamers and I do know what I'm doing. I thank you for your input.
Regards,
Chino69