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Wind Force Calculation

I am a little confused about the force in psi applied to a bullet in a cross wind. The physics formula for the force applied to an object is .00256 x (speed in mph) squared which is exponential in result. The ballistic calculators double the drift if you double the MPH which is linear. The force is adjusted for the object shape and angle of the applied wind in both cases.
Here is an example of what I am seeing. The following are not actual results but to illustrate my question.

Ballistic Calculator
Wind Speed Drift
5mh .2
10 mph .4
20 mph .8


Wind Force Calculator
Wind Speed Force
5mph 25 oz
10 mph 100 oz
20 mph 400 oz



I ran into this when attempting to calculate the deflected angle of a wind flag sail tail of a given weight and shape or the action of a wind probe. The .00256 is for air density at sea level
 
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Fw = (1/2) ρ v²A

Are you forgetting to multiply by half?
---
Similar to bullet Kinetic Energy
it is not
F=MA
it is instead
----
Ke = (1/2) M*V²
------
I see what you're saying
if wind speed is doubled, pressure in PSI is quadrupled
but then the result should be divided by 2 right?
which in effect
makes it like it Pressure actually only doubled if wind speed doubled
----
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here or missed an aspect
 
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The force is described ok. But, you have to factor in time and motion. The force will decrease as the bullet starts moving, ie, when bullet moves at 1fps and wind is 5fps, effective force at that point is calculated with a value of 4fps. As bullet increases to 2fps, effective force is 3fps, etc, etc. This is one of those cases where calculus is handy :) F=m * dv/dt

I suspect the bullet comes close to ambient wind vel in a fairly short distance, so for the most part drift follows ambient wind vel, which is a linear term as long as the wind is steady.
 
I think you got F=MA a little mixed up. A is defined in velocity over time squared, i.e. 9.8 meters per second, per second. Not A^2.
I was trying to make a comparison of how sometimes people get Force and Kinetic energy mixed up
Where A is acceleration
For accelerating systems wherein F=MA determines the Force required to accelerate a body
(but is not the energy the body possesses)
mixed up with Kinetic energy formulas such as (F=MV² is not the same as F=MA)

---
And maybe similary, he might have grabbed the wrong formula or simply omitted a step for what he was doing even though it may be close
I dunno, I didn't check his math to see... since he didn't show his work
But mainly was wondering if he did in fact divide by 2 in one of the steps
 
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Well, I think a feller would do much better putting a lot of rounds down range watching good flags. Playing with numbers is fun, but!
True that
It was fun to learn how to calculate Standard Deviation just to understand it is vastly different than
Average Velocity
But I aint about to calculate that every shooting session on paper
---
I trust my chrono to do it for me without double checking it :P
 
I am a little confused about the force in psi applied to a bullet in a cross wind. The physics formula for the force applied to an object is .00256 x (speed in mph) squared which is exponential in result. The ballistic calculators double the drift if you double the MPH which is linear. The force is adjusted for the object shape and angle of the applied wind in both cases.
Here is an example of what I am seeing. The following are not actual results but to illustrate my question.

Ballistic Calculator
Wind Speed Drift
5mh .2
10 mph .4
20 mph .8


Wind Force Calculator
Wind Speed Force
5mph 25 oz
10 mph 100 oz
20 mph 400 oz



I ran into this when attempting to calculate the deflected angle of a wind flag sail tail of a given weight and shape or the action of a wind probe. The .00256 is for air density at sea level
Ok I’ll give it a shot. Your math is all correct, but nevertheless deflection only doubles as crosswind speed doubles.

Maybe because the bullet cants into the crosswind (pointing slightly upwind) and this changes the bullet displacement vs cross wind velocity relationship (picture 90 degrees for simplicity) from exponential to linear. If the bullet flew exactly “straight” regardless of cross wind velocity then I think you would see 4 times more deflection when the wind speed doubled, just as you proposed. Essentially the bullet cant angle attenuates the effect of a crosswind. Maybe someone can “set me straight”.

Edit after some more reading:
A better way to look at it is to picture a drag vector pointing directly behind the canted bullet (canted into the wind). One component of the drag vector points downwind and its magnitude is directly proportional to the crosswind speed. This is the force that causes downwind deflection. So the wind pressure on the side of the bullet, which increases exponentially with wind velocity as noted by the original post, isn’t the relevant force causing downwind deflection. Instead, the alignment of the bullet like a wind vane creates a drag with a lateral or downwind component. (Picture a relative vacuum behind the bullet).

Long (sorry)
 
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Well, I think a feller would do much better putting a lot of rounds down range watching good flags. Playing with numbers is fun, but!
For my nickels worth, I'm with BUTCH. All that figuring, and numbers, just make my head hurt, and I still
don't know what you guys figured out. :rolleyes: :oops: I will trust my ballistics calculator, and the target.
To all a good night.
 
I am a little confused about the force in psi applied to a bullet in a cross wind. The physics formula for the force applied to an object is .00256 x (speed in mph) squared which is exponential in result. The ballistic calculators double the drift if you double the MPH which is linear.
Maybe this will help get you going in the right direction.

You're talking about two different things:
1. The force applied to a bullet by a crosswind, which would use units of force (kg or lbf etc) and
2. Wind deflection, or "drift" which would use units of length (mm, inch, etc)

(psi is a unit of pressure, not force)

But you don't need to think in terms of force (or pressure) to calculate wind deflection. You can ignore it.

What I always remember for figuring wind deflection (and this helps me remember/understand ballistic coefficient) is this:
Wind Deflection = [Lag Time] x [Wind Speed] x [Any trigonometric correction factors for wind direction]
where
[Lag Time] = [Time of Flight] — [Time of Flight in a Vacuum]
and where
[Time of Flight in a Vacuum] = [how long it would take your bullet to cover x yards if its velocity at x yards was equal to, or the same as, its muzzle velocity ... in other words, if it didn't slow down at all]

The concept of "lag time" is what makes me remember that "the more streamlined a bullet is, the less drag it creates as it passes through the air, which means the less it slows down, compared to that same bullet flying through a vacuum -- or outer space -- where it doesn't have to push any air molecules out of its way." (A bullet flying through outer space will continue at the same speed forever, or until it hits something that has mass.)

One thing to remember is that in a strong wind (or any wind, but it's easier to visualize if you consider a strong crosswind), a bullet's wind deflection increases exponentially, in much the same way that its acceleration downward, due to gravity, increases exponentially (10 meters/sec² or "32 feet per second per second"). In other words, wind deflection doesn't increase lineally, but exponentially. Another way to say this is that "the more time that the crosswind acts upon the bullet, the faster the bullet moves laterally" ... at least until the bullet's lateral speed "catches up to" the wind speed, at which point their lateral speeds will match. In other words, when the bullet exits the muzzle, it is not moving laterally (sideways) at all. But the longer the bullet is suspended in the air, the more closely it approaches the lateral speed of the air through which it flies, until eventually the bullet's lateral speed will match the wind speed, the same way a tumbling umbrella flies down the street faster and faster until eventually it matches the wind speed. In some ways, a bullet flying through the air is like a boat moving through the water...they're both subject to "set and drift."

Let's say you have a 40 mph (~59 ft/sec) crosswind at 90° (say 9 o'clock).
At a range of 0 yards, the bullet has a lateral speed of 0 ft/sec. It's not moving laterally at all...yet.
At 100 yds, its lateral speed will be let's say 3 ft/sec (not real numbers -- just to illustrate). It's accelerating laterally.
At 200 yds, its lateral speed will be let's say 8 ft/sec. (Yardage doubled, but deflection more than doubled.)
At 400 yds, its lateral speed will be let's say 20 ft/sec. (Yardage doubled again, but deflection more than doubled.)
At 800 yds, its lateral speed will be let's say 50 ft/sec.
In other words, the bullet's lateral speed due to the wind increases parabolically.
That means its wind deflection will also increase parabolically, the more time that the wind acts upon it.

Bryan Litz's book "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting" is where I read about all this stuff, and I hope that I'm not mangling the information in it too badly ... if I am, I hope Bryan or someone will set the record straight. (That book is a GREAT resource, by the way ... I learned a ton from it.)
 
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I was trying to make a comparison of how sometimes people get Force and Kinetic energy mixed up
Where A is acceleration
For accelerating systems wherein F=MA determines the Force required to accelerate a body
(but is not the energy the body possesses)
mixed up with Kinetic energy formulas such as (F=MV² is not the same as F=MA)

---
And maybe similary, he might have grabbed the wrong formula or simply omitted a step for what he was doing even though it may be close
I dunno, I didn't check his math to see... since he didn't show his work
But mainly was wondering if he did in fact divide by 2 in one of the steps
I did not divide by two. I looked up the formulas for calculating the load caused by the wind on a building or light pole. It is that formula with a factor for size, shape and angle of wind attack applied. Using the applied force and weight of the sail tail I used trig to find the angle of the tail for the mph of the wind. More importantly it reflected when they were no longer accurate do to the lack of sensitivity caused by the angle of attack of the wind. This applies to your wind probes as well. About 45 degrees and the are topped out. The solution is to use a heavier sail tail to keep it in a more sensitive range of 0 to 35 deg or adjust your probe counter weight to keep it in your shooting range.
 
The ballistic calculators double the drift if you double the MPH which is linear

This is not exactly correct. The table below shows wind deflection for a 77SMK with a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps with 5mph and 10mph cross winds every 25 yards out to 200 yards.
Note that the deflection values for 10mph are not exactly double.

It's been too long for me to do the math, but I believe Charlie b's point is correct:
The force is described ok. But, you have to factor in time and motion. The force will decrease as the bullet starts moving, ie, when bullet moves at 1fps and wind is 5fps, effective force at that point is calculated with a value of 4fps. As bullet increases to 2fps, effective force is 3fps, etc, etc.
 

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