Will a Winchester 1897 and Model 12 shoot slugs?

[Swampbuck]

I know that this is a Rifle forum. But I'm not a member of any shotgun forums, and I'm sure I can get good advice here. I have inherited a Winchester 1897 and a Winchester Model 12. Both are long barreled and full choke. I have shot small game loads and they are great shooting guns. Very tight patterns, perfect for Turkey and small game. Anyway, I have read that the 1897 needs it's forcing cones lengthened to shoot plastic shells, and I am not sure about shooting slugs through these guns. I'm not doing skeet or cowboy action high volume shooting. What says the forum? Are slugs ok? Is forcing cones modifications necessary?

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

Following

 

[DGP4]

Both those models were designed to shoot 2-3/4 modern ammo using smokeless powder. I had a Model 12 and it was built like a tank. I would stay away from steel shot ammo, but slugs should shoot just fine. You say you inherited the guns. Like any gun you are not familiar with, you should have a competent gunsmith do a safety check before you shoot them. My inclination is to use old full choke guns for turkey hunting and leave the slug shooting for a more modern less valuable shotgun.

 

[rogina]

Both those models were designed to shoot 2-3/4 modern ammo using smokeless powder. I had a Model 12 and it was built like a tank. I would stay away from steel shot ammo, but slugs should shoot just fine. You say you inherited the guns. Like any gun you are not familiar with, you should have a competent gunsmith do a safety check before you shoot them. My inclination is to use old full choke guns for turkey hunting and leave the slug shooting for a more modern less valuable shotgun.

You would have to have the forcing cones opened up on both of them to shoot 23/4 inch steel. I have had it done.

 

[snert]

correct. Both were likely paper shell forcing cones. Especially the 97.

My question is why? I get it that you have two old guns you want to shoot slugs from. Can it be done? with Foster slugs, yes. But neither really were designed for this, and both are now antiques that should be relegated to birdshot of the real kind (lead) and buckshot. The Model 12 should handle the slug ok, but again, with full chokes , why? Buy a beater 870 express and beat it to death.

 

[KMart]

Standard 2 3/4" length lead slugs of the Foster or Brenneke design should not be a problem The old guns were pretty dang strong.
Be sure that you don't load a 3 inch or 3 1/2 inch shells in the 2 3/4 inch chamber. They may load and fire but they could create much higher pressure since the barrels forcing cones are just in front of the shortest chamber.
Also stay away from the Magnum 2 3/4 inch shells.

 

[KMart]

You would have to have the forcing cones opened up on both of them to shoot 23/4 inch steel. I have had it done.

On a Mod 12?

 

[snert]

Kmart,
My understanding (and understand my understanding can be dead wrong) is that many older pre-plastic shell guns had forcing cones that started earlier. when the plastic unfolded into the cone, it constricted the "flow" a bit, upping pressures. Add in steel, which doesn't flatten or deform, and you have a crunchy situation.

So, if i am wrong, I own it. But on the 97, I would just say no and not beat up an old bird. (BTW I shoot multiple M12 and a delightful model 42) I love em and they are wonderful firearms.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

No telling how many 2.75” rifled slugs i witnessed shoot at deer from a model 12 as a youth running deer dogs

 

[KMart]

Kmart,
My understanding (and understand my understanding can be dead wrong) is that many older pre-plastic shell guns had forcing cones that started earlier. when the plastic unfolded into the cone, it constricted the "flow" a bit, upping pressures. Add in steel, which doesn't flatten or deform, and you have a crunchy situation.

So, if i am wrong, I own it. But on the 97, I would just say no and not beat up an old bird. (BTW I shoot multiple M12 and a delightful model 42) I love em and they are wonderful firearms.

As I best understand all of that is that before 1 piece plastic wads, felt and cardboard wads was used in shotgun shells. A sharp angle forcing cone was used to seal and prevent blowback into the action of the gun. The forcing cone was to be located just at the mouth of an open shotgun shell.
By the time the 3 inch shells became popular( the same time steel became manditory for waterfowl), plastic shells were the norm with 1 piece wads. These long plastic wads did a much better job of sealing the gap between the case mouth and the forcing cone. Truly now, the forcing cones are pretty much unnecessary because of the modern wads and plastic shells. I still favor paper Federal.
Back in my trapshooting days, I had Stan Baker make me an unsingle bigbore for an MX8 Perazzi. The idea of the time was to reduce recoil and pattern better.
The barrel was a 10 gauge barrel with a 12 gauge chamber. The standard bore diameter of a 12 ga was .725.
The 10 ga bore was .800. It shot just fine without bloopers or gas escaping back into my face.

older pre-plastic shell guns had forcing cones that started earlier.
When plastic shells came out, they were made to a length to fit a SAMMI 2 3/4 chamber. Forcing cones are further out now because most all shotgun barrels are made for 3 and 3 1/2 inch chambers which moves the forcing cones out to match the longer shells.

 

[Dub]

Shot a many slugs from my old (1929) model 12

 

[Minshooter]

Here in Minnesota, many, many thousands of deer have fallen to those guns, shooting slugs.
My dad had a 97; our neighbor had a 12. They usually killed one every year.
But, I strongly agree with all who say buy an 870 (or Mossberg 500, or Savage, or ?), and use that.

 

[mongo chicago]

As long as you use lead slugs and not copper, it should be fine. I say should because I don't know the actual condition of your piece. I have owned many 1897s and shot slugs through most of them.

 

[Lucky Shooter]

I don't think I'd ever shoot steel shot through a Model 12.
The same probably goes for the M97

When the steel shot rule came in, I put my old M12 Duck Gun
away and picked up an old Mossburg.

The old M12 turned out to be a pretty good trap gun for casual
shooting.

I was advised of "no steel" and am glad to say I've used no
steel in these good old guns.

A. Weldy

 

[Dusty Stevens]

As I best understand all of that is that before 1 piece plastic wads, felt and cardboard wads was used in shotgun shells. A sharp angle forcing cone was used to seal and prevent blowback into the action of the gun. The forcing cone was to be located just at the mouth of an open shotgun shell.
By the time the 3 inch shells became popular( the same time steel became manditory for waterfowl), plastic shells were the norm with 1 piece wads. These long plastic wads did a much better job of sealing the gap between the case mouth and the forcing cone. Truly now, the forcing cones are pretty much unnecessary because of the modern wads and plastic shells. I still favor paper Federal.
Back in my trapshooting days, I had Stan Baker make me an unsingle bigbore for an MX8 Perazzi. The idea of the time was to reduce recoil and pattern better.
The barrel was a 10 gauge barrel with a 12 gauge chamber. The standard bore diameter of a 12 ga was .725.
The 10 ga bore was .800. It shot just fine without bloopers or gas escaping back into my face.

older pre-plastic shell guns had forcing cones that started earlier.
When plastic shells came out, they were made to a length to fit a SAMMI 2 3/4 chamber. Forcing cones are further out now because most all shotgun barrels are made for 3 and 3 1/2 inch chambers which moves the forcing cones out to match the longer shells.

What do they do, say when i send my gun to briley and have the forcing cones lengthened?

 

[WyleWD]

Both those models were designed to shoot 2-3/4 modern ammo using smokeless powder. I had a Model 12 and it was built like a tank. I would stay away from steel shot ammo, but slugs should shoot just fine. You say you inherited the guns. Like any gun you are not familiar with, you should have a competent gunsmith do a safety check before you shoot them. My inclination is to use old full choke guns for turkey hunting and leave the slug shooting for a more modern less valuable shotgun.

+1^^^^

I've owned and shot both. Never had any issues with the '97 when we went from paper to plastic. If there's anything to it needing modification I have no first hand knowledge or experience.

I was told a long time ago (mid 1970's) not to shoot slugs through a '97 or a M12 that had a full choke barrel and that one should use a modified or IC barrel for that. Then when steel came along I was told the same thing. So I retired both of the 97 and the M12 and bought an A390 for waterfowl, crow calling, pheasants, etc. and only hunt deer with a rifle.

For slugs I agree with the previous posters to get a newer more expendable shotgun with a rifled barrel. JMHO. WD

 

[KMart]

What do they do, say when i send my gun to briley and have the forcing cones lengthened?

The older guns designed for cardboard/felt wad types had forcing cones that went from a chamber diameter on a 12 ga, of around .800 to a bore diameter of .725 pretty rapidly. My best guess is that transition took place in about .030-.050".
In the 80's, a lot of shooters had the forcing cones lengthened so that that transition took place over a longer length. Early on that was a length of about 1 inch, to 1.5 inches. I understand that some are even longer now.
The process is pretty simple. Get a reamer for lengthening forcing cones. Put the barrels in a vise. Attach the reamer to a large T handle, put some cutting oil in the forcing cone area and on the reamer. Run the reamer in the chamber end and start cutting by hand. The reamer will pretty much stop cutting when the old forcing cone is gone. I have an old Clymer reamer I bought in 88, collecting dust.

At that time, there was a whole process of barrel work that took place that was suppose to help reduce recoil and improve patterns.
Lengthen the forcing cones

Back bore the barrels---Std bore diameter then was .725-.730. The entire length of the barrel was opened up to .740-.745. That opening process was stopped just prior to the choke area. Then the chokes had to be opened to give the choke the proper constriction, or put in screw in chokes.

Barrel porting also came into vogue

Starting in the 90's, Beretta, Perazzi and others started producing competition guns that came from the factory with all those goodies plus adjustable comb stocks. Most gun makers also started making 3" chambers standard about that time.

 

[rogina]

On a Mod 12?

No, on rem 870's.

 

[redrockranger]

I know that this is a Rifle forum. But I'm not a member of any shotgun forums, and I'm sure I can get good advice here. I have inherited a Winchester 1897 and a Winchester Model 12. Both are long barreled and full choke. I have shot small game loads and they are great shooting guns. Very tight patterns, perfect for Turkey and small game. Anyway, I have read that the 1897 needs it's forcing cones lengthened to shoot plastic shells, and I am not sure about shooting slugs through these guns. I'm not doing skeet or cowboy action high volume shooting. What says the forum? Are slugs ok? Is forcing cones modifications necessary?

The 97 should be a wall hanger....... Dangerous in the brush. Seen one go off when the hammer hung up and then snapped into battery. It's a grandpa's gun or maybe even great grandpa.

 

[Walt Krafft]

If a 16 or 20 gauge, it is best to have the chamber checked as many were shorter than 2 3/4.