Wildcats - Do you size again after neck turning?

[257Roberts]

Question for those of you running match grade reloads or fancy dancy wildcats that require neck turning.
Forgive my ignornace, I am fairly new to wildcats and neck turning. I do have a little experience forming and turning 350 Rem Mag and 25-20 Winchester. But now I am looking at anothe oldie, 219 Donaldson Wasp.

So we use an expander mandrel before neck turning, then we use a turning mandrel [usually 0.001" smaller] for the actual neck turning operation. Do you folks do anything to your brass after neck turning and before seating? I havent put a concentricity gauge on a "before and after" yet to see if there is a need to do any more sizing post turning. Thoughts?

No bushing dies exist for the Wasp, at least not Redding anyways, and I will need to turn the necks to get the proper chamber clearance with the desired bullet neck tension using the good ole FL die.

Thanks
Curious & Learning

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Youll need to re-establish neck tension after you expand for turning

 

[jepp2]

Do you folks do anything to your brass after neck turning and before seating?

That depends on what diameter your expander and turning mandrels are. If you are just using the standard E & T marked mandrels (you can mic them) I find as @Dusty Stevens shared, I need to size down the neck for adequate neck tension. I normally use a Lee collet die to do this.

using the good ole FL die.

Depending on the neck diameter of your sizing die, "your good ole FL die" may no longer adequately do this.

 

[357Mag]

Question for those of you running match grade reloads or fancy dancy wildcats that require neck turning.
Forgive my ignornace, I am fairly new to wildcats and neck turning. I do have a little experience forming and turning 350 Rem Mag and 25-20 Winchester. But now I am looking at anothe oldie, 219 Donaldson Wasp.

So we use an expander mandrel before neck turning, then we use a turning mandrel [usually 0.001" smaller] for the actual neck turning operation. Do you folks do anything to your brass after neck turning and before seating? I havent put a concentricity gauge on a "before and after" yet to see if there is a need to do any more sizing post turning. Thoughts?

No bushing dies exist for the Wasp, at least not Redding anyways, and I will need to turn the necks to get the proper chamber clearance with the desired bullet neck tension using the good ole FL die.

Thanks
Curious & Learning

257Roberts -

Howdy !

Yeh.... you'll likely need to do a neck size after outside neck turning; as you will have reduced neck wall thickness of the cases.

I am thinking you could get a Hornady .30-30 bushing style neck sizer die, and put a bushing in it appropriate for use on your .224" cal cases. I used this same approach for neck sizing on my " .22- 35Remington " wildcat.

With regards,
357Mag

 

[257Roberts]

I am being very cautious on this one, not that i dont know how to turn necks or size brass, but that the brass i am using is not very plentiful and i dont want to ruin any of it by turning too much off.

Its all based on neck thickness. My formed brass has 0.154" neck thickness on the mic, the OD is 0.253 of the neck. Doing the math, that means the expander ball in my FL die is about 0.222.

Now my chamber reamer is likely a .252 neck, which means I will have to turn necks. I can do that no problem. [open question to a couple reamer manufactures for dimensions of their reamers].

If I turn to 0.0125, the resulting OD is about 0.247 with the FL die, but a .222 expander ball, for about 0.002 neck tension.

If I turn to the same 0.0125 but use the expander mandrel [0.223] to set the neck ID, that results in about 0.248/.001. I like those numbers better, but will require FL sizing without the expander ball, then expanding and necking turning.

I am just curious if I can just stop there, or if its worth it [at the cost of working the brass more] to go back an FL again and expand again...

 

[257Roberts]

257Roberts -

Howdy !

Yeh.... you'll likely need to do a neck size after outside neck turning; as you will have reduced neck wall thickness of the cases.

I am thinking you could get a Hornady .30-30 bushing style neck sizer die, and put a bushing in it appropriate for use on your .224" cal cases. I used this same approach for neck sizing on my " .22- 35Remington " wildcat.

With regards,
357Mag

Hey thats an interesting idea!

 

[357Mag]

Question for those of you running match grade reloads or fancy dancy wildcats that require neck turning.
Forgive my ignornace, I am fairly new to wildcats and neck turning. I do have a little experience forming and turning 350 Rem Mag and 25-20 Winchester. But now I am looking at anothe oldie, 219 Donaldson Wasp.

So we use an expander mandrel before neck turning, then we use a turning mandrel [usually 0.001" smaller] for the actual neck turning operation. Do you folks do anything to your brass after neck turning and before seating? I havent put a concentricity gauge on a "before and after" yet to see if there is a need to do any more sizing post turning. Thoughts?

No bushing dies exist for the Wasp, at least not Redding anyways, and I will need to turn the necks to get the proper chamber clearance with the desired bullet neck tension using the good ole FL die.

Thanks
Curious & Learning

257Roberts -

Howdy, again !

For the Hornady NS die, I am talking about their " Custom Grade New Dimension " type of bushing NS die.

Also.... am thinking whether you might also be able to use a LEE Collet NS die for .220 Swift on your cases ?
Both are .224" cal cases, the Donaldson has perhaps a few 'thou more shoulder diam, but as I recall....
Lee's collet NS dies are cut generous in their shoulder diameters.

For use of the LEE die, the length of the .219 Donaldson case and to a lesser degree.... its shoulder angle
are the questions.

You fore-shorten the die's inner sliding sleeve @ the bottom, to reduce 'Swift die length; to use on the shorter Donaldson case. But this alone probably wouldn't be enough. You'd likely need to add a thick washer or lower bushing to the die ti make up the difference in case' lengths; and to ensure upward operation
of the inner sleeve.... as you operate the press.

As regards difference shoulder diiam.... I don't consider this to be a major issue, at all. The LEE Collet NS die features different collets for each different casr. Even though the shoudler diam of the Donaldson varies from that used on the .220 Swift; the colet will still contact the case on the shoulder somewhere. The more
important fact is that the collet will still function as desired, with the collet closing around the neck....
to provide the necessary squeeze onto the inner mandrel.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[bsekf]

I have several wildcats in TC guns and need to bump the shoulder as well a neck size. I use body dies and Lee Collet dies. You can use a Collet die on cases longer than the original by shimming with washers on top of the shell holder. Like 6x47L in a 6BR collet die. BUT you must be careful not to touch the shoulder. And, it is not necessary to size the entire neck, as long as tension remains the same.

 

[mikecr]

You should describe what you have w/resp to BULLET diameter (.224), and not what OD a FL die is leaving.
For instance, give us [loaded neck OD] native and desired.
If you turn necks to .0125 and seat a .224 bullet in the neck, your loaded neck will be .249 -NOT .247

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Depending on just what the wildcat case(???) is, might consider running a caliber-sized mandrel thru the case mouth to be sure about the neck tension? I used a 7mm mandrel after NK turning some of my 7mm RSAUM sized wildcats for that purpose.

 

[Shooter13]

Youll need to re-establish neck tension after you expand for turning

This is as far as you need to read.

 

[257Roberts]

Good discussion, lots of good tips and ideas. Here are some details....

Looking to build a 219 Donaldson Wasp [why? no good reason other than I like odd stuff] using 225 Winchester brass instead of 30-30. The advantage here is the smaller rim which allows usage of the standard 0.473 bolt face.

Running 225 brass thru the 219FL die results in a 0.253" neck OD.
Measured average neck thickness is about 0.0155"
Calculating backwards, that's about a 0.222" expander button. [.002 neck tension]

Problem is, 219DW reamers are about 0.252-.253 neck diameter, so i need to turn necks.
No problem, I expanded over a .223 mandrel and turned to 0.0125"
I then ran them back over the 0.223 expander mandrel and seated an 88gr ELDM
The result is a 0.248" neck OD, which i think is about perfect [?] for a bolt gun [.004" clearance].
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking forward, talking about extending brass life...
1. I could use the FL die w .222 button, for .002 neck tension [easiest if it shoots well]
2. I could use the FL die w button, then run over the .223 mandrel for .001 tension [extra step]
3. I could remove the button, FL size to 0.242, then run over the .223 mandrel

Is there any advantage to removing the button [option 3] with regards to "work hardening the brass"?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annealing, how often? [Never used to anneal 223, 308, 30-06 etc]
Just started annealing brass, now that I am playing with more expensive and hard to get things.
Every other firing? Every 3rd? Every one?

Neck turning, how often?
I've just started neck turning, out of necessity of a couple other odd cartridges.
How fast will material grow into the base of the neck requiring another turning operation?
I think this is called the "donut"?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its been a fun little exploration, I've never gotten this deep into a "wildcat" before.

I am planning to build this up as a multi-purpose NRA XTC/prone match rifle /coyote/varmint gun. I am planning to shoot super heavy bullets, 90gr with probably a 1:7 twist. By my math, I believe this will equal or out perform a 22BR and 22 Nosler. If I read correctly, H2O case capacity of the BR is like 33.5, Nosler is 34.5, and Wasp is more like 35.5, with the Wasp also having the advantage of a longer neck to help keep long heavy bullets out of the "powder zone".

My only real question now is finding a reamer, but I think a throating reamer can customize my throat however Id like? I have found 3 available for rent, one Clymer, one PTG and another older unmarked version. I'm thinking I need at least .100 freebore for 90gr, maybe a little more. That said, i don't want to limit my ability to shoot say 75gr bullets either, for more the practice/hunting application.

Any and all thoughts accepted and appreciated!

 

[357Mag]

Good discussion, lots of good tips and ideas. Here are some details....

Looking to build a 219 Donaldson Wasp [why? no good reason other than I like odd stuff] using 225 Winchester brass instead of 30-30. The advantage here is the smaller rim which allows usage of the standard 0.473 bolt face.

Running 225 brass thru the 219FL die results in a 0.253" neck OD.
Measured average neck thickness is about 0.0155"
Calculating backwards, that's about a 0.222" expander button. [.002 neck tension]

Problem is, 219DW reamers are about 0.252-.253 neck diameter, so i need to turn necks.
No problem, I expanded over a .223 mandrel and turned to 0.0125"
I then ran them back over the 0.223 expander mandrel and seated an 88gr ELDM
The result is a 0.248" neck OD, which i think is about perfect [?] for a bolt gun [.004" clearance].
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking forward, talking about extending brass life...
1. I could use the FL die w .222 button, for .002 neck tension [easiest if it shoots well]
2. I could use the FL die w button, then run over the .223 mandrel for .001 tension [extra step]
3. I could remove the button, FL size to 0.242, then run over the .223 mandrel

Is there any advantage to removing the button [option 3] with regards to "work hardening the brass"?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annealing, how often? [Never used to anneal 223, 308, 30-06 etc]
Just started annealing brass, now that I am playing with more expensive and hard to get things.
Every other firing? Every 3rd? Every one?

Neck turning, how often?
I've just started neck turning, out of necessity of a couple other odd cartridges.
How fast will material grow into the base of the neck requiring another turning operation?
I think this is called the "donut"?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its been a fun little exploration, I've never gotten this deep into a "wildcat" before.

I am planning to build this up as a multi-purpose NRA XTC/prone match rifle /coyote/varmint gun. I am planning to shoot super heavy bullets, 90gr with probably a 1:7 twist. By my math, I believe this will equal or out perform a 22BR and 22 Nosler. If I read correctly, H2O case capacity of the BR is like 33.5, Nosler is 34.5, and Wasp is more like 35.5, with the Wasp also having the advantage of a longer neck to help keep long heavy bullets out of the "powder zone".

My only real question now is finding a reamer, but I think a throating reamer can customize my throat however Id like? I have found 3 available for rent, one Clymer, one PTG and another older unmarked version. I'm thinking I need at least .100 freebore for 90gr, maybe a little more. That said, i don't want to limit my ability to shoot say 75gr bullets either, for more the practice/hunting application.

Any and all thoughts accepted and appreciated!

257Roberts -

Howdy !
One way to look at it....

First off.... your loaded cartridge neck OD needs to fit the chamber.

If they already does this, then the reason for doing neck turning on these cases would be to make sure they are all uniform in neck wall thickness & concentricity.

To make all cases end up w/ the same thickness, the brass needs to be of sufficient neck wall thickness to start with... that ( ideally ) all high spots on the neck walls are removed.... and ( ideally ) no cases have spots where their neck walls are thinner than other spots on the neck.

It is not unusual for cases to require just a minimal " skim trim ", that in-essence does little more than remove " orange peel " texture on the exterior of the necks. Neck step up from this, would be where outside neck turning produces a visible " chip " or curl of removed brass..... just a slight sliver where the thicker neck wall spot was.

Next up from that.... would be when brass is removed most of the way, or even all the way around the circumference of the neck. This latter case is often encountered when forming wildcat cases by necking-down from a larger calibre parent case.

In those instances when chamber dimensions and brass dimensions allow... the " wildcatter " / re-loader has
some latitude to pick a neck wall thickness..... .010"..... .011" and so forth ( as examples ).

Terms like " fitted neck " and " tight neck " refer to arangements where loaded cartridge neck wall OD in the chamber is minimal. This quite often is the very circumstance re-loaders are seeking.

I had an instance when I was working w/ a NZ shooter on a wildcat, where he wanted a fitted neck that would have .012" nekc wall thickness. We soon found out that when forming his cases from .260 Rem, the neck walls would end up thinner than .012"; by the time all necks were made uniform thickness. In other words, many of the formed wildcat' necks were too thin to start out with. Same thing happened when forming the wildcat from 7-08 brass. We could not get ahold of any .308 brass. However, when forming cases from .358Win.... all necks could be made uniform in thickness. That was offered as an example.

IMHO - A variety of neck wall thicknesses can be made to shoot well. You'll have to decide based on some of the above mentioned circumstances. As regards case " life : one would imagine.... comparatively thicker neck walls and / or least amount of neck wall sizing needed to achieve your accuracy goals.... would aid case life by prevention of premature neck cracks.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[357Mag]

Hey thats an interesting idea!

.257Roberts -

Howdy !

Did not mention neck sizing in the post response I made immediately above.

My point;
Establish desired neck wall thickness, first.

Then, determine which mount of neck sizing shoots best for you.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[Webster]

Question for those of you running match grade reloads or fancy dancy wildcats that require neck turning.
Forgive my ignornace, I am fairly new to wildcats and neck turning. I do have a little experience forming and turning 350 Rem Mag and 25-20 Winchester. But now I am looking at anothe oldie, 219 Donaldson Wasp.

So we use an expander mandrel before neck turning, then we use a turning mandrel [usually 0.001" smaller] for the actual neck turning operation. Do you folks do anything to your brass after neck turning and before seating? I havent put a concentricity gauge on a "before and after" yet to see if there is a need to do any more sizing post turning. Thoughts?

No bushing dies exist for the Wasp, at least not Redding anyways, and I will need to turn the necks to get the proper chamber clearance with the desired bullet neck tension using the good ole FL die.

Thanks
Curious & Learning

If it shoots OK for what you use it for I wouldn't bother neck turning unless I had to. It's a nice varmint cartridge. From what I read it's a real process making the cases from 30-30 cases. Do you have to turn and ream necks after forming from 30-30 cases. You cannot buy the brass.

 

[357Mag]

Hey thats an interesting idea!

.257Roberts -

Howdy !

While I believe the use of a Hornady bushing NS die would be t he easiest route' to go for your .219 Donaldson use,I finally had a little time to review terminology use for the Lee " Collet Neck Size Dies ".
So, I'll include some info about impressing a LEE .220Swift Collet NS die into use for the Donaldson.

Lee uses around 4 different threaded outer die bodies. The die bodies accept the inner " collet ", " sleeve "; and upper threaded aluminum cap. The die bodies feature an inside lower lip just above the their entrance, that works in-conjunction w/ a mating " step " on the outside of the die's " sleeve "; to keep the inner collet from falling out the bottom of the die.

Lee provides different " collets " for individual cases. The collets have 4 intregral " petals " cut into them.
These petals close in spacing when the collet is advance up-into the upper mating " sleeve ". The " collets " have a " step " on their outer surface, that works in-conjunction w/ a mating lip inside the lower entrance of the die; that keeps the " collet " from falling out the bottom of the die.

The dies have different diameter mandrels, that are surface the collet squeezes the case' necks against;
to provide the desired neck sizing action.

The collet dies feature different " sleeves " dedicated to each individual case.
The sleeve is located above the collet, and has a bevelled entrance @ the lower end that accepts the upper tapered outside surface of the collet. * The sleeve is what ( to a large degree ) dictates what calibre of mandrel can be accepted. The sleeve's center hole is intended to keep the mandrel centered in the die.
For these reasons.... an ( example ) " .22-250 " sleeve center hole won't accept a larger diam ( example ) .308Win mandrel.

When using the collet NS die.... operating the press handle advances the case to be sized up-into the die.
The inner sleeve is allowed some room to move upward during use, until it reaches a stopping point, dictated by the prescence of the threaded die cap. The cap also features and inner circular clearance on its lower surface, that accepts the cirular upper " head " on the mandrel. This head is necessary to keep mandrels from falling out the bottom of the die.

By design, the lower end of the collet contacts the shell holder, and the collet's upper petals close down on the case' neck, squeezing it against the mandrel as the tapered collet upper surface advances up-into the bevelled entrance of the sleeve. Lee provides mandrels that allow .002" " squeeze on case' necks. They used to offer to reduce their mandrels an additional .001", for a nominal fee. I DK if LEE currently offers that service ? However, one can always reduce mandrel OD themsleves, if need be.

As stated before.... for neck sizing the .219 Donaldson using a collet die, you could use a .220 Swift collet die body & lock ring, retaining the inner .220 Swift collet.... and also keeping the dedicated .220 Swift sleeve; and of course.... the universal upper cap.

* The ' Swift die's collet inner diameter are generous enough to accept the slightly larger shoulder diam of the .219 Donaldson case, which from what I've read might run around .005" greater diam.

While the Swift case' rim face-to-shoulder dimension is some .410" longer than the rim face-to-shoulder dimension seen on the Donaldson, this can be accomodated by trimming off part of the lower collet that protrudes out the bottom of the die.... and by use of a washer or bushing to enusre the collet can be advanced sufficiently up-into the die for proper sizing action. Another key part of this, would be to use a
" perch " along w/ the die. A " perch " is a shell holder that has a 1/4-20 flat head shoulder bolt placed through the center or the washer.... the bolt head trapping the washer between the bolt head and the shell holder. The bolt's threads pass through the primer ram slot of the shell holder. The bolt can simply be epoxied in place.

* The perch allows the case to be advanced further up-into the die than the limit of travel that contact w/ the shell holder would customarily produce. The shoulder bolt I used for my " perch " results in a .200" gap between bottom of the bolt head and the flat surface of the primer entrance slot in the shell holder.
That .200" gap + the amount of metal removed from the bottom of the collet together should serve to make up the .410" difference in case dimension; noted above.

I added a properly sized helical spring inside the die, between the cap and the top of the sleeve.
The idea being that the spring would return the die to " battery " ( the starting position of the die in the sizing process ). This was necessary since .... when using a perch... the case simply sits atop it. There is no case holder to " pull " the case back out of the die. When the die goes back to battery.... the sized case is made available for manual extraction from the mandrel.

Lastly, I will add that I went the LEE route' when assembling a customized die for use in neck sizing
6.8 SPC. Of course, the only .277" cal Lee Collet NS die is the one they make for .270 Win.
We used the methods described above, and they worked.... even though the .270Win case is a lot longer than what the 6.8SPC case is.


Hope this helps.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[357Mag]

257Roberts -

Howdy !

I got to thinking / re-thinking about the 2 neck sizing ideas I mentioned for your .219Donaldson; and believe
I have some improvements to make on that.....

First off..... for the LEE Collet NS die idea.... I forgot to mention that:
- You won't be able to de-prime using the die's deprime / sizing mandrel, because you would be using the
" perch " I described previously.

- You'd want to shorten the mandrel both remove the deprime rod, and to shorten over-all mandrel length so that it would not bottom out prematurely inside the .219 Donaldson case. All one needs is just enough of the mandrel running down inside the case' neck; to allow for proper sizing of the neck. This results in having to do de-priming as it/s own seperate operation, using a deprime rod & mallet; etc.

I will say that when I used the LEE Collet NS die, I found exactly .010" die movement upward / downward in the press; for each 1 full revolution made to the die ( whether in or out of the press ). ( See pic 1 )

For the more simple Hornady Bushing NS die, here's my corrected thinking....
You could probably use a Hornady 6PPC bushing-style NS die; and simply use install a .22_ " calibre bushing for use in neck sizing your .219 Donaldson cases. This would give you the 30* shoulder angle accomodation you want; along w/ a shoulder diam that is not so much wider than the Donaldson case; as would be a die for a case that has .450" + shoulder diam. ( See pic 2 for the Hornady die in-use ).


Sorry for any confusion I might have caused, due to previous messages.

With regards,
357Mag