Wild cat cartridges and the great popular option

[bobcat93]

I would like to present a question that may sound completely rediculous.
Were cartridges & wildcat all made up by gunsmiths, or shooters like us here on the forum?
We make such a big deal out of accuracy..like surgical, pin piont accuracy..if it cant do it..no one wants to hear about it.
Im very, very curious how messed up is to messed up for practical use. Hahaha.
I think it would make a very interesting video.
So.a man movies to Northern Alaska absolutely Middle of gods country and bring one rifle, reloading equipment, components for one cartridge and one cartridge only..say 30-06 its simple, you can jam just about anything in it and it will work good enough ..
Hahah still with me..
The years go by soon all his brass is split and worn out but he still has the gun, lots of components and reloading equipment.
What do you do? Lay the gun in a corner and starve to death? Make bow and arrow, how about a spear..hahaha.
Could a person take a file and get to work file down the reloading dies, cut down the junk brass untill it could form new brass case, with what is on hand .then take off the barrel and file it down and set it back..some drill bit work by hand in the chamber and back in action.
Hahaha..will this work? I think it can be done in a common sense way..even finding a safe load to shoot accurat enough for game . hahaha
Like seriously how bad can it get before it gets dangerous or its all completely useless...inquiring minds want to know..
Doesnt that sound interesting..i mean even if ya use a string to the trigger and start with a low charge the worst that will happen is a stuck bullet correct?..that can be beat out with a wood rod and carry on..i mean we are starving in the Alaskan wilderness and Sasquatch could have smelled us.

Has any one wondered how bad is to bad..or.. is it really that simple ?, and we all have it hyped way out of proportion ..big deal dont stick your face next to rifle untill you figure it out..
Has any one done this not like John browning would, but how an old miner might of had too

maybe Demo Ranch, he would do it for sure..but i dont think he's a reloader..
Ive brought the million dollar idea no one has done yet..
Im passing the ball. But you cant use any machine..all had work crudely done in a homestead, bush skill way
And i only choose 30-06 because of popularity and case length seems like it would be easy to cut off case necks and shoulder to form new case and still feed and protect yourself

 

[dellet]

I don’t know the exact answer to your question, but I’m pretty sure I bought one of your old rifles.

Getting a case to fit the chamber wasn’t so bad, it’s the bullet diameter that was a pain. Just not too many off the shelf bullets that are .317 diameter that work in a 1/25 1/4 twist. Probably should have left the bore alone.

 

[butchlambert]

I would like to present a question that may sound completely rediculous.
Were cartridges & wildcat all made up by gunsmiths, or shooters like us here on the forum?
We make such a big deal out of accuracy..like surgical, pin piont accuracy..if it cant do it..no one wants to hear about it.
Im very, very curious how messed up is to messed up for practical use. Hahaha.
I think it would make a very interesting video.
So.a man movies to Northern Alaska absolutely Middle of gods country and bring one rifle, reloading equipment, components for one cartridge and one cartridge only..say 30-06 its simple, you can jam just about anything in it and it will work good enough ..
Hahah still with me..
The years go by soon all his brass is split and worn out but he still has the gun, lots of components and reloading equipment.
What do you do? Lay the gun in a corner and starve to death? Make bow and arrow, how about a spear..hahaha.
Could a person take a file and get to work file down the reloading dies, cut down the junk brass untill it could form new brass case, with what is on hand .then take off the barrel and file it down and set it back..some drill bit work by hand in the chamber and back in action.
Hahaha..will this work? I think it can be done in a common sense way..even finding a safe load to shoot accurat enough for game . hahaha
Like seriously how bad can it get before it gets dangerous or its all completely useless...inquiring minds want to know..
Doesnt that sound interesting..i mean even if ya use a string to the trigger and start with a low charge the worst that will happen is a stuck bullet correct?..that can be beat out with a wood rod and carry on..i mean we are starving in the Alaskan wilderness and Sasquatch could have smelled us.

Has any one wondered how bad is to bad..or.. is it really that simple ?, and we all have it hyped way out of proportion ..big deal dont stick your face next to rifle untill you figure it out..
Has any one done this not like John browning would, but how an old miner might of had too

maybe Demo Ranch, he would do it for sure..but i dont think he's a reloader..
Ive brought the million dollar idea no one has done yet..
Im passing the ball. But you cant use any machine..all had work crudely done in a homestead, bush skill way
And i only choose 30-06 because of popularity and case length seems like it would be easy to cut off case necks and shoulder to form new case and still feed and protect yourself

With a sliding compound miter saw and a big enough hammer you could do it right?

 

[bobcat93]

Haha...not allowed to use power tools an old homesteader, or miner wouldnt have a chop saw..hahaha..
But a file, oh you could use a modem hacksaw as they were developed in 1890.. so it could have been a tool used. .
It would be hard, it would be labor intensive, but it can be done. With some what accurate results ill bet.
I know where i can possibly locate an old rifle that works but they beat pretty bad..and it maybe a perfect specimen..ill have to talk to the man and see what he has..it wont be untill after thanks giving..
If i can find a rifle..ill order some lee dies, and one of those lee reloading kits you can take to the range and reload on your tailgate of your truck or right at the bench..its like a hand press..
They had kits like that for old black powder metalic cartridge
Here are a few pictures of what was used
Im gonna say the lee kit would be something a person would or could have carried into the back country..so its allowed to be used...
Check out the old wooden reloading press..you spoiled modern reloaders...weve come a long long way hahahahahaha..
I dont think redding made that..

 

[bobcat93]

I don’t know the exact answer to your question, but I’m pretty sure I bought one of your old rifles.

Getting a case to fit the chamber wasn’t so bad, it’s the bullet diameter that was a pain. Just not too many off the shelf bullets that are .317 diameter that work in a 1/25 1/4 twist. Probably should have left the bore alone.

But you you went out into the back country a man would have packed a bullet mold, and we know the caliber..we just dont have any brass cases left. So we need to modify what we have to keep going.
All i could come up with would be to cut everything down ..if some have a better idea..im all ears...what to do if you run out of brass for your rifle?..
Could a mold be made and just pour some brass to make new cases in the outback?..that would seem impossible..

 

[SeabeeKen]

Fire up another of your hydraulic cigarettes and wait for the bears to come

 

[SSL]

Not sure I've ever been that bored...

 

[357Mag]

But you you went out into the back country a man would have packed a bullet mold, and we know the caliber..we just dont have any brass cases left. So we need to modify what we have to keep going.
All i could come up with would be to cut everything down ..if some have a better idea..im all ears...what to do if you run out of brass for your rifle?..
Could a mold be made and just pour some brass to make new cases in the outback?..that would seem impossible..

Bobcat -

Howdy !

Thinking out-loud....

The self-reliant, off-the-grid frontiersman would likely be of the
" one shot...one kill " mindset. In that regards, the shooter would be frugal; and not in huge need of lots of reusable components.... like brass. A contolled amount of wildcat cases would suffice, for the shooting needs extant. More on that, in a bit...

Let's challenge some of your basic premises...a need to " mod " the gun; for example
Q - How 'bout not modifying the gun at all ? The shooter
would probably be a pretty pragmatic person. For this discussion, let's sub-out the ( for instance ) the .30-06 choice
you made, and run the mental masturbation using
.35 Remington....

An example " no gun mod's " wildcat:
A "neckless" wildcat version of the .35Remington can be made.
I've formed it. I've shot it ( in a stock Marlin M-336 XLR ).

I used a .350'" diam swaged lead Spitzer BT, that featured a central hollow cavity capped with an aerodynamic plastic tip.
The bullet also featured a rebated boat tail. I pulled these bullets from sabot'ed .45cal muzzle loader rounds. For use in the M-336's .358" cal barrel, I " patched " the bullets using Nylon self-stick DYMO label maker tape.

I breech loaded and fired the gun single-shot, ala' "Scheutzen"
practice. I fashioned a breech seating tool using a " Torx " 90* wrench, and a slip-fit short lengtb of plastic drinking straw.

*** The rebated boat tail I used was.308" diam where it meets the .350" diam bullet body. *** I formed additional shoulder area on the neckless case, using a 7.65 Mauser die ( or alternately a 7.7 Jap die ), and trimmed the fwd face of the case to produce a nominal .310" case " mouth " diam on the wildcatted brass.

For firing, the patched bullet is breech seated using the homemade seater tool. A charged case has a tissue paper wad placed inside, to keep the powder in-place during chambering...
and is placed on the cartridge lifter. Operating the action ( the lever for the Lever action Marlin example) introduces the boat tail into the case. When fully closed, the lead 195grSPBT has it's bullet body lower rebate overhang lip pressed firmly up against the flat face of the wildcat's case " mouth ".
This facilitates the powder ignition/combustion process.
*** The rifle / wildcat combo described ( my example rifle,
w/ 12 groove " Ballard " rifling ) is " minute of deer " capable out to 100yd. ***

In an extreme circumstance, the rifle could even be muzzle loaded... provided great safety measures were taken when seating the bullet on the charged / chambered case.

So again, using the example wildcat / rifle combo...here is a
" system " that uses an un-modifed rifle that can discharge
factory and reloaded stock cases ( includes reloads w/ cast bullets... wildcat cases using breech seating.....and even in an emergency be shot as a muzzle loader.

Why mod the gun, when things like this can be accomplished ?

I do also have a more traditional wildcat approach to share, when time allows. I'll get back to you, soon as I can; on that wildcat.

With regards,
357Mag

 

[357Mag]

I would like to present a question that may sound completely rediculous.
Were cartridges & wildcat all made up by gunsmiths, or shooters like us here on the forum?
We make such a big deal out of accuracy..like surgical, pin piont accuracy..if it cant do it..no one wants to hear about it.
Im very, very curious how messed up is to messed up for practical use. Hahaha.
I think it would make a very interesting video.
So.a man movies to Northern Alaska absolutely Middle of gods country and bring one rifle, reloading equipment, components for one cartridge and one cartridge only..say 30-06 its simple, you can jam just about anything in it and it will work good enough ..
Hahah still with me..
The years go by soon all his brass is split and worn out but he still has the gun, lots of components and reloading equipment.
What do you do? Lay the gun in a corner and starve to death? Make bow and arrow, how about a spear..hahaha.
Could a person take a file and get to work file down the reloading dies, cut down the junk brass untill it could form new brass case, with what is on hand .then take off the barrel and file it down and set it back..some drill bit work by hand in the chamber and back in action.
Hahaha..will this work? I think it can be done in a common sense way..even finding a safe load to shoot accurat enough for game . hahaha
Like seriously how bad can it get before it gets dangerous or its all completely useless...inquiring minds want to know..
Doesnt that sound interesting..i mean even if ya use a string to the trigger and start with a low charge the worst that will happen is a stuck bullet correct?..that can be beat out with a wood rod and carry on..i mean we are starving in the Alaskan wilderness and Sasquatch could have smelled us.

Has any one wondered how bad is to bad..or.. is it really that simple ?, and we all have it hyped way out of proportion ..big deal dont stick your face next to rifle untill you figure it out..
Has any one done this not like John browning would, but how an old miner might of had too

maybe Demo Ranch, he would do it for sure..but i dont think he's a reloader..
Ive brought the million dollar idea no one has done yet..
Im passing the ball. But you cant use any machine..all had work crudely done in a homestead, bush skill way
And i only choose 30-06 because of popularity and case length seems like it would be easy to cut off case necks and shoulder to form new case and still feed and protect yourself

Bobcat -

Forgot to send along some pics: .35 Remington neckless...

With regards,
357Mag

 

[Jtate]

Khyber Pass
google

 

[357Mag]

But you you went out into the back country a man would have packed a bullet mold, and we know the caliber..we just dont have any brass cases left. So we need to modify what we have to keep going.
All i could come up with would be to cut everything down ..if some have a better idea..im all ears...what to do if you run out of brass for your rifle?..
Could a mold be made and just pour some brass to make new cases in the outback?..that would seem impossible..

Bobcat -

Howdy, again !

I have no intention of being critical of your overall thought project.

Might I offfer a few thoughts ?
If the need to shorten the barrel @ the breech end is being driven say.... cases with split necks, long splits would result in the need to perform a commensurate shortening of the chamber plus.... form brass to fit the new chamber.

.30-06 has some .385" of neck length. If the intent were to try and salvage a modicum of usability from the damaged cases, the example neck splits would force the need to perform some serious case oal / neck length " trimming ".

If you have an -.06 case at hand, measure case diam .385" up
( example ) from the wide point on the base ( just above the extractor groove ). This will tell you what the newly " modified " chamber's base diam would be. Not all neck splits might be that long, but... understand the point.

*** Your brass would need to have a base diam that fits the
newly-modified chamber... a dimension determined using the above sample method. *** IMHO - any significant shortening of the chamber @ the breech end, would end up giving a base diam that disallow use of ( trimmed foreshorten ).30-06 brass.
Dependant on the imagined amount of barrel ( chamber ) shortening, it seems likely even use of a " small base " sizing die for would not be able to size -.06 brass base diam down far enough for it to fit the mod'ed chamber. Therefore...

To work in the fore-shortened barrel ( chamber ) you postulate, what you would really need is a different case that has the correct base diam ( and still useable case oal ) required by the modified chamber. Let's run a thought exercise....

Say you shortened the chamber ( deliberately ) to obtain a
nominal .466" base diam. That would allow use of 7 X 64 Brenneke brass. 7X64 has .016" less shoulder diam than the .30-06, and is .004" smaller in base diam.

Viewed

 

[357Mag]

Bobcat -
Continued...

In 2D side view, the 7 X 64 case just .008" less shoulder
" height " than the -06 has. The Brenneke case' shoulder angle is a scant 8* 1' " sharper " than the -06's shoulder angle.

The 7x64 case is just .080" longer than a 30-06 case.
For a new case to fit, the 7 X 64 Brenneke would require a shoulder shove downward to a new location that gives the wildcatted case a " base-to-shoulder " dimension that fits the chamber. That would result in the necessity to form a new shoulder location, and of course a new neck. There would need to be a neck expansion don from 7mm to .308" cal, and perhaps some ironing-out of formed brass inconsistencies.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[ISS]

I'm 75, so I go back a long ways on Wildcats. I visited John Buhmiller at his shop, even bunked out there a number of times. I also stayed at Ackley's shop several times. I even crashed at Argus Barker's place a couple times enroute to Quigley and back.
Most of the old time gunsmiths developed Wildcats to promote their business. My favorite small bore, after Donaldsons' Wasp was Bob Marciante's 224 Bluestreak.
Marciante was an East Coast gunsmith who shot benchrest in the way old days. Most of those guys were using some variation of the 219 Zipper Improved. Marciante got a new barrel just a day before a major 100/200/300 yard match. In those days gunsmiths made a single flute reamer to test theories. Marciante ended up making a 219 Zipper Improved (his version) with a long (FL 30-30) neck. He ran short of time, and just cut the chamber for the FL Zipper Improved. Formed his cases at the warmup match, and won one aggregate. Thus was born the Blue Streak.

The goal was always to "improve" velocity by blowing out some of the taper and making a sharp shoulder. These days we accept velocity gains as 1/4 the increase in case capacity. In the pre-1960 era, they stoked the case full of powder and often "guesstimated" the velocity increase. They just increased the powder charge until cratered primers told them to back up a grain or two. The "Improved" case's most positive thing was the reduced taper and sharp shoulder vastly improved case life.

ISS

 

[bobcat93]

Those are interesting facts from every one.
Bahahaha im an idiot sometimes.
Thank you for everyone who said ( just go with it) on this topic.i know its all over, but you answered my question.
(THIS IS THE MEAT & POTATOES I WAS AFTER!!!)
Under no circumstance should a person alter a rifle in the way i describe above. That is a no no
Simply because there are many options to work with before destroying or altering said rifle due to damage or no brass
. Is the main point to take away here.
So the life rule would be
(Always alter the ammo first)
And if your heading to the outback bring a can of trailboss..hahaha