would be used in Palma .308 brass? Can someone please explain what the advantage would be? Thanks, VooDoo
Why Small Primers...
- Thread starter VooDooMagic
- Start date
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
Brass with small primer pockets can handle more pressure due to less material removed from the case head to hold the primer.
I believe it's due to the faster powders that are used with the 155gr bullets not needing the extra flash from the large rifle primers, and the smaller flash is supposed to provide better (smoother or more consistent?) ignition for those faster powders. The .308 doesn't hold a ton of powder, so when faster stuff is used, the LR primers are just a bit much. Small rifle primers are also said to be more consistent as well.
I'm not 100% positive about that, but from what I read on it, it seems to be the reasoning behind it. And for Lapua to invest in the tooling for it, there has to be some benefit.
A little bit on the brass here:http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/esitteet/Lapua308WinPalmaCase2010.pdf
I'm not 100% positive about that, but from what I read on it, it seems to be the reasoning behind it. And for Lapua to invest in the tooling for it, there has to be some benefit.
A little bit on the brass here:http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/esitteet/Lapua308WinPalmaCase2010.pdf
VooDoo,
it's to reduce velocity spreads for long-range shooting. It was originally requested by the US Palma Team and Lapua supplied limited quantities for testing over the 2009 (or maybe 2008?) season. It was subsequently decided to be useful enough on the basis of Palma Team feedback and Lapua's own tests to be put into fullscale production and offered to the general public.
It's not only a smaller primer pocket, but the case also has the small diameter flash-hole (0.0615") that you find in PPC, BR and 6.5X47L brass. You MUST NOT resize a Palma case using a die fitted with with a standard diameter decap pin designed for the normal (0.080") diameter flash-hole.
It's a not entirely uncontroversial move. Some of the old hands who used Remington .308 UBBR brass that was also so equipped remember inconsistent ignition with some primers and powders, especially on cold days. Some users drilled the flash-holes out to standard size and that cured the problem apparently. The US Palma Teams' two captains say no problems were encountered with today's Small Rifle Magnum primers. You do lose some velocity however.
Palma shooting is at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards. Reducing MV variations is valuable at these ranges. I doubt if the extra cost can be justified by those who only shoot at shorter ranges. My examination of sample Palma cases from 300 I've just collected show their consistency, especially in neck thickness, is very good indeed - better than previous recent batches of standard Lapua .308W brass.
The story and issues are fully worked through on the US Rifle Teams Long-Range Shooting Forum:
http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php?showtopic=12149
There are follow-up threads too on loads and suchlike.
Laurie,
York, England
it's to reduce velocity spreads for long-range shooting. It was originally requested by the US Palma Team and Lapua supplied limited quantities for testing over the 2009 (or maybe 2008?) season. It was subsequently decided to be useful enough on the basis of Palma Team feedback and Lapua's own tests to be put into fullscale production and offered to the general public.
It's not only a smaller primer pocket, but the case also has the small diameter flash-hole (0.0615") that you find in PPC, BR and 6.5X47L brass. You MUST NOT resize a Palma case using a die fitted with with a standard diameter decap pin designed for the normal (0.080") diameter flash-hole.
It's a not entirely uncontroversial move. Some of the old hands who used Remington .308 UBBR brass that was also so equipped remember inconsistent ignition with some primers and powders, especially on cold days. Some users drilled the flash-holes out to standard size and that cured the problem apparently. The US Palma Teams' two captains say no problems were encountered with today's Small Rifle Magnum primers. You do lose some velocity however.
Palma shooting is at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards. Reducing MV variations is valuable at these ranges. I doubt if the extra cost can be justified by those who only shoot at shorter ranges. My examination of sample Palma cases from 300 I've just collected show their consistency, especially in neck thickness, is very good indeed - better than previous recent batches of standard Lapua .308W brass.
The story and issues are fully worked through on the US Rifle Teams Long-Range Shooting Forum:
http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php?showtopic=12149
There are follow-up threads too on loads and suchlike.
Laurie,
York, England
Now that is some information a man can sink his teeth into! Thanks gentlemen, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. VooDoo
Forum Boss
Administrator
Lapua Small Flash hole is 0.059 (1.5mm) for 220Ru, 6mmBR, and 6.5x47
Laurie,
I don't know the flash hole diam. on the .308 with small primer pocket/small flash hole.
However the Flash hole diameter spec on 220 Russian, 6mmBR, and 6.5x47 Lapua brass is 1.5mm which works out to 0.059. You need an 0.057 decapping pin for such brass (and that's what Forster and Redding provide, though a few dies have shipped with larger pins by mistake).
An 0.0615 pin will bind and possibly break in the 220Ru, 6mmBR, and 6.5x47 brass.
As noted, I have not personally measured the .308 small primer pocket brass.
Hopefully Jerry Tierney can enlighten us here.
Laurie,
I don't know the flash hole diam. on the .308 with small primer pocket/small flash hole.
However the Flash hole diameter spec on 220 Russian, 6mmBR, and 6.5x47 Lapua brass is 1.5mm which works out to 0.059. You need an 0.057 decapping pin for such brass (and that's what Forster and Redding provide, though a few dies have shipped with larger pins by mistake).
An 0.0615 pin will bind and possibly break in the 220Ru, 6mmBR, and 6.5x47 brass.
As noted, I have not personally measured the .308 small primer pocket brass.
Hopefully Jerry Tierney can enlighten us here.
Forum Boss,
thanks for that correction - I'll take a note of it. My main point still stands that most .308W dies have an overly large pin diameter - my fairly recent production Redding and Forster .308W die sets all use pins of 0.063-0.065" dia and will either stick or swage the flash-hole out inconsistently.
There must be a problem brewing 'out there' in that many will buy this brass for one reason or another and be unaware of the mismatch. Also, will the tool manufacturers move to the small dia. pin size for their dies in this calibre bearing in mind that some customers will now use small flash-hole brass?
Regrards,
Laurie
PS in a look that I've taken of the new Lapua .308W Palma and .22-250 Rem brass, I'd no way of measuring the flash-holes, but used the appropriate Sinclair flash-hole reamers as a guide. In previous lots of small-hole Lapua brass (6BR) that I have, the reamer either doesn't touch the hole sides, or if it does so marginally that you hardly feel any resistance to turning it. In large flash-hole cases it was either as per the 6BR (.308W) or only had between 5 and 10% (very recent production .223 Rem Match) see any metal removed. In contrast, both lots of new Lapua saw metal cut from the flash-hole in every example out of a sample of 50 from each calibre suggesting that Lapua has reduced flash-hole sizes in these particular products at any rate. The Sinclair reamers are the recently introduced models that index off the primer pocket using a sliding collar.
thanks for that correction - I'll take a note of it. My main point still stands that most .308W dies have an overly large pin diameter - my fairly recent production Redding and Forster .308W die sets all use pins of 0.063-0.065" dia and will either stick or swage the flash-hole out inconsistently.
There must be a problem brewing 'out there' in that many will buy this brass for one reason or another and be unaware of the mismatch. Also, will the tool manufacturers move to the small dia. pin size for their dies in this calibre bearing in mind that some customers will now use small flash-hole brass?
Regrards,
Laurie
PS in a look that I've taken of the new Lapua .308W Palma and .22-250 Rem brass, I'd no way of measuring the flash-holes, but used the appropriate Sinclair flash-hole reamers as a guide. In previous lots of small-hole Lapua brass (6BR) that I have, the reamer either doesn't touch the hole sides, or if it does so marginally that you hardly feel any resistance to turning it. In large flash-hole cases it was either as per the 6BR (.308W) or only had between 5 and 10% (very recent production .223 Rem Match) see any metal removed. In contrast, both lots of new Lapua saw metal cut from the flash-hole in every example out of a sample of 50 from each calibre suggesting that Lapua has reduced flash-hole sizes in these particular products at any rate. The Sinclair reamers are the recently introduced models that index off the primer pocket using a sliding collar.
It will be interesting to see how some of the guys using this brass fare over the winter. Especially when the temperatures are at freezing or below.
Myself, I had considered trying this brass in my .308's but decided to pass just to adhere to the K.I.S.S. principal. Having to change decapping pins and switching primers back and forth just in my case would be asking for mistakes. Not to mention the added cost and since I have a couple of hundred rounds of new Lapua large primer .308's not even loaded yet I decided to adopt the wait and see attitude.
Danny
Myself, I had considered trying this brass in my .308's but decided to pass just to adhere to the K.I.S.S. principal. Having to change decapping pins and switching primers back and forth just in my case would be asking for mistakes. Not to mention the added cost and since I have a couple of hundred rounds of new Lapua large primer .308's not even loaded yet I decided to adopt the wait and see attitude.
Danny
I think Lapua is providing what customers are asking for. But in the end, this stuff will fade away as in the past..
All it takes is for a competing few to perform worse, and the blame will so easily land on the intiating change. The herd will murmur..
Also, D.Tubb tested small primers with his 6xc design, and he went large over small. I can't imagine he would do this unless secure in the decision.
Winter is near us, and again we'll see issues from small primers in capacities beyond their benefit.
All it takes is for a competing few to perform worse, and the blame will so easily land on the intiating change. The herd will murmur..
Also, D.Tubb tested small primers with his 6xc design, and he went large over small. I can't imagine he would do this unless secure in the decision.
Winter is near us, and again we'll see issues from small primers in capacities beyond their benefit.
Small rifle "match or bench rest" primers or small rifle "magnum" primers or just standard small rifle primers?
Gentlemen,
Aprreciate the feedback here and yes, Forumboss is correct; the flash holes on the new Palma SRP cases are indeed 1.5mm, as opposed to the more standard 2.0mm used on most of our other cases. We utilize the smaller (1.5mm) flash holes on a number of cases, all of which are primarily accuruacy oriented. The 220 Russian, 6mm BR and 6.5x47 are the others, with the 308 Palma being the latest. Yes, you will need to switch out your decapping pin in most 308 Win dies to avoid sticking a pin in the flash hole. Do apologize for the inconvenience here, but as has been pointed out, we were responding to customer's requests here, and it does indeed seem to work. There have also been several comments here about the potential reliability in cold weather, and we agree with those assesments. The cases were intended for competitive shooting, which is generally conducted in nice, warm, sunny weather (at least, that's the way I like it!). We discourage reloaders from using this brass for cold weather hunting, or heavy charges of slow burning, hard to ignite powders, because there is a real possibility of poor ignition, hangfires or outright failures to fire in such situations.
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
Aprreciate the feedback here and yes, Forumboss is correct; the flash holes on the new Palma SRP cases are indeed 1.5mm, as opposed to the more standard 2.0mm used on most of our other cases. We utilize the smaller (1.5mm) flash holes on a number of cases, all of which are primarily accuruacy oriented. The 220 Russian, 6mm BR and 6.5x47 are the others, with the 308 Palma being the latest. Yes, you will need to switch out your decapping pin in most 308 Win dies to avoid sticking a pin in the flash hole. Do apologize for the inconvenience here, but as has been pointed out, we were responding to customer's requests here, and it does indeed seem to work. There have also been several comments here about the potential reliability in cold weather, and we agree with those assesments. The cases were intended for competitive shooting, which is generally conducted in nice, warm, sunny weather (at least, that's the way I like it!). We discourage reloaders from using this brass for cold weather hunting, or heavy charges of slow burning, hard to ignite powders, because there is a real possibility of poor ignition, hangfires or outright failures to fire in such situations.
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
Kevin,
several of our F/TR national league competitors have made the switch to the Palma brass and are very pleased with the results. Their loads are mostly 185gn (and a few with 210gn) bullets and case-filling charges of Viht N550. No ignition problems have arisen to date.
I'll run a full series of comparative tests with F/TR type loads and a few Target Rifle / Palma loads over the coming winter for the Targetshooter.co.uk online magazine using Palma v 'standard' Lapua brass. When I say 'winter', it would be unusual to shoot in temperatures below 40-deg F here in Northern England, so I don't expect any problems even with Re17, N550 and IMR-4007SSC.
My initial workbench inspection / measurement of these cases - and even more so, the new Lapua .22-250 Rem models - is that production consistency is very good indeed, superb actually, and very few cases require a 'clean-up' light neck-turn. (I've reported on them as such on the News pages in the October issue.) So ten out of ten for Lapua on these cases!
Laurie,
York, England
several of our F/TR national league competitors have made the switch to the Palma brass and are very pleased with the results. Their loads are mostly 185gn (and a few with 210gn) bullets and case-filling charges of Viht N550. No ignition problems have arisen to date.
I'll run a full series of comparative tests with F/TR type loads and a few Target Rifle / Palma loads over the coming winter for the Targetshooter.co.uk online magazine using Palma v 'standard' Lapua brass. When I say 'winter', it would be unusual to shoot in temperatures below 40-deg F here in Northern England, so I don't expect any problems even with Re17, N550 and IMR-4007SSC.
My initial workbench inspection / measurement of these cases - and even more so, the new Lapua .22-250 Rem models - is that production consistency is very good indeed, superb actually, and very few cases require a 'clean-up' light neck-turn. (I've reported on them as such on the News pages in the October issue.) So ten out of ten for Lapua on these cases!
Laurie,
York, England
I used the small primer pocket Lapua brass for the first time at the 2010 SOA match in my FTR rifle. I was using Berger 185 BTLR bullets, RL15 powder and 205m Federal primers. Everything I shot in competition was new brass. I had no problems at all. In fact, when reviewing my plots for the week against plots from previous matches, the reduction in vertical spread was striking. I don't have chrono numbers to back up the plots yet, but this load showed a clear improvement over the same bullet/powder in standard Lapua brass. FWIW I ended up tied with Michelle Gallagher for the overall lead, but she beat me out on x's, I won the FTR class daily aggregate for the last day and set a new fullbore FTR 1000yd women's record during the SOA match so the ammo worked pretty well ;D
Laura
Laura
Well done Laura.
I've followed your posts on the US Rifle Teams Long-Range Forum and you're obviously making great progress in F/TR.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the Palma brass performs in my Barnard / Eliseo F/TR tubegun, although that rifle has now been superseded by a .223 Rem shooting 90gn Bergers in GB F-Class Association long-range league rounds.
Laurie
I've been using it in my 260 for a few months. It was a bit of work to get the brass just right but it has been working pretty well. I know yall will shudder but I actually opened up the flash hole a few thou for the undersized decapping pins to work. It turned in a few 100y groups in the .1 and a few in teh .2-.3 range. We'll see how it does with the colder temps and vv550
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